XPost: alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, talk.religion.misc   
   From: sornson@zk3.dec.com   
      
   Hey DuRunRun wrote:   
   >   
   > "Mark Sornson"  wrote in message   
   > news:3F61DA93.A0ED7B1@zk3.dec.com...   
   > > > $$ THEIR own or the WTs?  Let's get honest here.   
   >   
   > > When people join JWs -- which is a free-will thing --   
   > > they agree to adopt a certain set of standards and   
   > > values, and agree to adjust their personal priorities   
   > > to that of the JW organization.   
   >   
   > $$  Free will?   The message they bring is one of FEAR,... "Join our WTS or   
   > our god Jehovah will kill you for all eternity and very, very soon."   Many   
   > people will join them out of FEAR.   
      
   I personally haven't met a single one who   
   joined out of fear.  And when I talk to people   
   about my faith, it never even occurs to me to   
   attempt to instill a climate of fear within   
   them.   
      
   [I did once have an apostate tell me that   
   after he was disfellowshipped for immorality,   
   he later rejoined out of fear, but he still   
   didn't last, because his heart really wasn't   
   in it.  No person can stay a JW if their only   
   reason for being one is fear.]   
      
   >                                      The ignorant, the gullible, those who   
   > have an abnormal dread of death.   
      
   Please tell us what a normal dread of death is.   
      
   Perhaps you embrace death with open arms -- but   
   it's quite normal to view death as the Bible does,   
   as an "enemy" (1Cor 15:26), and quite a relief   
   to put faith in the Bible's promise that one day   
   death itself will be "destroyed" (NIV) or "abolished"   
   (NASB).   
      
   >                                   That still doesn't mean they all   
   > mindlessly believe every utterance from the mouth of the GB.   
      
   Yes indeed, JWs don't "mindlessly believe" anything.   
   As I said before, we are very MINDFUL, and (on the   
   whole) make more than an average effort to study all   
   the facets of our beliefs in detail.   
      
   >                                                              The problem is   
   > they are NOT ALLOWED to voice their concerns, their doubts and ask   
   > questions.   
      
   Before joining, each one is encouraged to have a   
   personal, home Bible study, during which they can   
   voice all of their concerns and doubts, and ask   
   questions.  People who don't voice their concerns   
   and doubts are short-changing themselves.   
      
   The goal is for each one who joins to have a reasonable   
   depth of knowledge and a strong faith.  JWs (as a   
   whole) don't want people to 'sign up' on a whim, only   
   to have the whim fade shortly there-after.   
      
      
   >             They're accused of a weak faith, being demon inspired, and put   
   > in fear of stumbling others and perhaps even being disfellowshipped.   
      
   It is possible for people to have a weak faith.   
   See James 1:5-8.   
      
   It's pretty rare to come across anyone inside the JW   
   organization who, even with a weakened faith, would   
   be called "demon inspired", unless their behavior went   
   a bit wacky.  It's rare that only doubts about belief   
   would become a cause of stumbling for others.  There's   
   usually some sort of behavior that accompanies claims   
   of a loss of faith that presents more of a danger to   
   others.   
      
   I've never heard anyone ever be threatened by saying,   
   "If you don't believe, you'll be disfellowshipped".   
   On rare occasions, a person experiences SUCH a radical   
   change of mind, heart, AND behavior that they earn   
   the label "apostate" -- but when a person gets to that   
   point, threats of disfellowshipping are pretty much   
   a moot point.  What happens more often is that people   
   simply drift away, and are viewed as inactive by the   
   congregation.  For better or for worse, they might get   
   ignored, but they usually aren't 'prosecuted' in order to   
   be officially expulsion.  At least in theory, there's always   
   the hope that such ones will find a reason to reactivate   
   their faith and association.  Disfellowshipping such   
   "weak" ones would therefore completly undermine that   
   hope.   
      
      
   > Somewhere in the "free will" is lost because of fear and manipulation.   
      
   No one is manipulated.  If anyone develops fear, it's   
   because they lose their own love:   
      
     "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives   
      out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.   
      The one who fears is not made perfect in love."   
      (1John 4:18 NIV)   
      
   Fear also often accompanies wrong-doing (fear of being   
   found out), with accusations of others not being loving   
   used as a cover or smoke-screen.   
      
   Now, I'm not saying that the 'people in charge' cannot   
   ever be the ones guilty of showing a lack of love.  But   
   usually that isn't the root cause of a loss of faith.   
   [Cf. Matt 13:18-22 for reasons Jesus gave for people to   
   experience a loss of faith.]   
      
   >                                                                        I   
   > know for a fact many do NOT agree with everything the WT teaches.   
      
   What you claim to know "for a fact" is always suspect.   
      
   However, people (in general) join JWs because they   
   find enough things to be in agreement with us about,   
   and at least claim to agree with us on all of the   
   important issues.  Time puts all such claims of sincerity   
   to the test.   
      
   >                                                                   Many are   
   > trapped in this Publishing House Society (aka a JW Org.) because of the   
   > shunning FEAR.   
      
   This is a plausible argument for some who joined   
   while still young (i.e., they grew up in it), and   
   then decide when older that they want to bail out.   
   But whenever JWs hold baptisms, most who stand up   
   to be baptized are older.  For them, it's entirely   
   the result of a free-will decision from a mature   
   mind.   
      
   I've rarely ever seen anyone get all "fearful" about   
   anything.  The last person I had any dealings with who   
   expressed any such emotion was actually somewhat mentally   
   unbalanced (by his own admission, no less).  People with   
   personality disorders (that give them a touch of paranoia)   
   are the ones most likely to start dwelling on, and making   
   accusations about fear.  They tend to turn everything   
   into a me-verses-the-world thing (or everyone-else-is-to-   
   blame-but-me thing).   
      
   >   
   >   People who join   
   > > who do NOT really adopt the values and priorities   
   > > of the organization are not being honest with themselves   
   > > or the organization.   
   >   
   > $$  Some have no choice and since it's an ORG' and not a real CHRISTian   
   > religion what does it matter if they continue to think for themselves, to   
   > question WT non-CHRISTian policies, demands and beliefs?   
      
   Everyone has a choice to join or not join.  JWs are the   
   only religion I know that goes out of its way to offer   
   a lengthy home-Bible study, and require a person to begin   
   associating AND practicing our faith for a significant   
   amoung of time before being accepted for membership.   
      
   People who want to "continue to think for themselves" (if   
   that argument has any validity whatsoever) do just that,   
   and they never join (or they possibly may even try to, but   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)