XPost: alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, talk.religion.misc   
   From: sornson@zk3.dec.com   
      
   Nori Otaku wrote:   
   >   
   > Mark Sornson wrote on Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:28:28 +0000:   
   >   
   > > Nori Otaku wrote:   
   > >> I believe it is because the JW believe that their time should be put   
   > >> toward God first, and everything else is irrelevant.  However, if they   
   > >> *truly* believed that, then why are they not a hermetic order?   
   > >   
   > > No, everything else isn't necessarily irrelevant, just not first.   
   > > Speaking for only myself and my family, we make the personal choice to be   
   > > involved with JWs to the extent that we are, and thus don't have time for   
   > > things like PTAs.  However, that doesn't mean that we have no interest in   
   > > the schools.   
   >   
   > No lack of interest seems to be implied, rather lack of participation.   
      
   That depends on how you define participation.   
   Whose standards are JWs supposed to meet?   
   Their own, or yours?   
      
   >   
   > > The thing is, each JW has to make the consciencious choice to volunteer   
   > > that time.  Each one makes the personal decision to make spiritual   
   > > pursuits their priority.   
   >   
   > But the JW org recommends, in its literature, that "spiritual" (read: JW)   
   > interests should come first.   
      
   Right.  To us, that is the clear message of the Bible.   
      
   >                              So the decision is to ignore the JW   
   > literature (not wise in the JW org), or to make the JW first in one's life.   
      
   In reality, JW literature doesn't rule out participation   
   in all forms of secular (non-religious) activity.  Just   
   focusing on school, some JWs are actually teachers themselves.   
   [My family's JW teacher friend often laments how hard it   
   is to get parents of all sorts to take a proper and   
   balanced interest in their kids education.  Our friend   
   teaches 'troubled kids'.]   
      
   There's a visual illustration I've seen of a clear   
   jar, a couple of tennis balls, and a lot of marbles.   
   If you put the marbles in first (many little things),   
   there's no room for the tennis balls (a few big things).   
   But if you put the tennis balls in first, amazingly   
   enough there's still room for all the small things.   
      
   To JWs, spiritual things are the 'big things' (like   
   the tennis balls in the jar, the jar being life itself).   
   Everything else of importance is like the many marbles.   
      
   When we put the big things first, we still manage   
   to fit in all the other things that are really of   
   importance to us.  It's not your place to dictate to   
   JWs how we should set our priorities and decide what   
   is and is not a 'big thing' for us.   
      
   >   
   > > When Jesus said for each one to 'pick up their cross and follow him,' he   
   > > was encouraging them to willingly choose a course of self-sacrifice that   
   > > would make serving God each ones number 1 priority.   
   >   
   > The whole point of this exercise is that involvement in   
   > charity/humanitarian aid *is* serving God.   
      
   The whole point of the anti-JW arguments in this   
   thread is that charity/humanitary aid is viewed   
   as the FOREMOST way to serve God.  JW critics are   
   trying to force JWs to except their priorities,   
   rather than let JWs decide their priorities for   
   themselves.   
      
   >                                             Going proselytizing and   
   > attending church are *not* sufficient,   
      
   That's your judgment for yourself.  You cannot   
   make that judgment for JWs, and dictate to us   
   that we must be doing what YOU think we should   
   be doing.   
      
   >                                         they are means to the end, not the   
   > end itself.   
      
   You define your ends, and we'll define ours.   
      
   >   
   > > Jesus gave an illustration about following him that involved people   
   > > begging off for what might seem to be more than reasonable excuses.  One   
   > > said, 'permit me to bury my father' and another said, 'permit me to say   
   > > goodbye to my family'. Jesus' summary opinion of these responses was,   
   > >   
   > >  "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service   
   > >  in the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62 NIV)   
   >   
   > JC met these people along the road.  What they were asking is for JC to   
   > wait for them, rather than to carry their own burden and catch up.  So, he   
   > chided them, reminding him that his work was more important than their   
   > personal lives.   
      
   Good point.  Exactly on target.  The aspects of their   
   personal lives that were covered in those sayings were   
   not mere trivialities.  Therefore, people would have to   
   accept an adjustment to their thinking, to their personal   
   priorities, in order to be doing "his work" first.   
      
   >   
   > However, the point here is this: what was JC's work?  Healing the sick,   
   > raising the dead,   
      
   Both of these things were miraculous abilities that   
   he could wield instantly.  Although the NT documents   
   that a few Christians could do the same, it doesn't   
   document that all Christians wielded these abilities,   
   or that the use of abilities like these were a MAJOR   
   focus of Christian activity.   
      
   Jesus also didn't teach his followers who did NOT   
   have miraculous powers how to heal the sick or raise   
   the dead.  Except for a little advice by Paul to Timothy   
   to use a little wine for a stomach sickness, the   
   message of the Bible (NT in particular) really says   
   very little about Christians of that day being   
   actively involved in healing the sick; and outside   
   of the gospels and Acts, it makes NO mention of   
   early Christians raising the dead.   
      
   >                     and finally preaching to others.   
      
   Since you choose to relegate preaching to last   
   in importance, you naturally put this last in your   
   list.  In reality, Jesus put preaching first.  His   
   ability to do miracles and pass on those abilities   
   to a limited few were secondary.   
      
   >                                                      Notice that JC nearly   
   > always did some good deed before giving a sermon -- the deeds came first.   
      
   It is true that Jesus was very free (and merciful)   
   with his ability to perform healings in connection   
   with his teachings.  However, using Jesus as an example   
   in this regard is actually a bit of a red herring, for,   
   again, Jesus did those healings instantly, miraculously,   
   with no 'overhead'.  For the most part, his disciples   
   did not wield the same power with equal freeness and   
   frequency, and Jesus didn't otherwise teach those   
   without miraculous powers how to provide physical   
   health care conjointly with their teachings.   
      
   >   
   > As scripture says "faith without works is dead."   
      
   True, but the most outstanding acts of "works" that   
   proved faith had little or nothing to do with material   
   charity and healings.  For instance, the foremost example   
   of one who proved his faith by works -- the first one   
   mentioned by James, who wrote that faith without works is   
   dead --  was Abraham.  His "work" was that of almost   
   sacrificing his son at God's command.   
      
   The second example was Rahab.  Although she showed   
   the Israelite spies 'hospitality,' in reality her   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)