XPost: alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, talk.religion.misc   
   From: sornson@zk3.dec.com   
      
   ~ * ~ wrote:   
   >   
   > "Mark Sornson"  wrote in message   
   > news:3F660FC2.E5AA72BB@zk3.dec.com...   
   > > Hey DuRunRun wrote:   
   > > > $$  Free will?   The message they bring is one of FEAR,... "Join our WTS   
   > or   
   > > > our god Jehovah will kill you for all eternity and very, very soon."   
   > Many   
   > > > people will join them out of FEAR.   
   > ==============   
   > > I personally haven't met a single one who   
   > > joined out of fear.   
   >   
   > ##   Gee, and I have.......   
      
   Then that's their problem.  The JW organization only   
   wants people to join out of love for Jehovah God and Jesus   
   Christ, love for what they've learned, and love for   
   the people they've begun to associate with.   
      
   >   
   >  And when I talk to people   
   > > about my faith, it never even occurs to me to   
   > > attempt to instill a climate of fear within   
   > > them.   
   >   
   > ##  You don't think telling them about your WT god's plan to kill everyone   
   > but the JWs doesn't instill fear in those who believe in such nonsense?   
      
   It doesn't instill fear in me or anyone I know, because   
   that's not the point.   
      
   JWs aside, almost anyone with or without a bias   
   can read the Bible and discern that one of its major   
   messages is about a divine judgment against the world   
   that means life for some and death for others.   
      
   Just as the choice to ignore that message, and   
   view it as a fiction, is up to the individual, the   
   choice to react to that message with "fear" is   
   up to the individual.  However, there are other choices   
   that people can make as to how they view that message   
   that are more positive.   
      
      
   > PLEASE!!!!!  I've known many Catholics who lived in FEAR of hell!   
      
   That's their problem.  I've known a number of JWs who   
   were quite relieved (by JW teachings) to learn that   
   there is no hell (of eternal torment) to fear.   
      
   >                                                                    I've   
   > known JWs in fear of Armageddon.  Get real Mark!   
      
   Frankly, I don't believe your view ever represents an   
   objective analysis of what other JWs really think and   
   believe.  You always seem to take away from anything   
   related to JWs only the worst possible interpretation.   
      
   Armageddon isn't something to be laughed at, but   
   in reality, the Bible depicts it as a good thing (to   
   get rid of wickedness), because God and Jesus Christ,   
   and not humans, are the judges in that event.  Their   
   perfect judgment will be fair and just.   
      
   >   
   > > [I did once have an apostate tell me that   
   > > after he was disfellowshipped for immorality,   
   >   
   > ## What kind of immorality?  He had sex with a willing adult woman?  He   
   > kissed one?   
      
   I didn't press him for details.  I simply took him   
   at his word about the details he gave me.   
      
   >               The WTS allows pedophiles to remain in good standing but will   
   > DF willing adults.   
      
   The "WTS" does not "allow" pedophiles to "remain in good   
   standing" if they commit their crimes while they are JWs.   
   When the evidence is sufficient to support an accusation,   
   such ones are disfellowshipped.   
      
   It is possible for such ones to repent and be allowed to   
   re-enter the congregation.  But they would never be allowed   
   to hold a position of oversight.   
      
   It's up to the legal system to keep such ones in prison if   
   they should not be allowed to roam freely in society.   
   If the legal system sets them free, they have the right   
   to associate with JWs (or any other church) if they choose.   
      
   >                     Why is that do you think?   
      
   You really omit the whole side of the story that   
   proves that JWs do not have a "pedophile friendly"   
   attitude.  What we do have is a Biblically merciful   
   policy that allows for such ones to repent and seek   
   forgiveness from a spiritual standpoint.  [How they   
   pay their civil and moral debt to their victims and   
   society is a matter that the legal system is   
   responsible for.]   
      
   Even accused people have rights ("innocent until   
   proven guilty" is a policy that is allegedly at the   
   heart of the US justice system).  Why is it that   
   you never mention that?   
      
   >   
   > > he later rejoined out of fear, but he still   
   > > didn't last, because his heart really wasn't   
   > > in it.  No person can stay a JW if their only   
   > > reason for being one is fear.]   
   >   
   > ##  That depends on the person.   
      
   At best, you could only hope to find someone who   
   at present has such a fear (and I'm sure you really   
   hope to find such ones).  You'll never find one   
   who has been a JW for a long time, for whom fear   
   is their primary motive.  Such ones always burn   
   out or flame out eventually, because only love is   
   long-lasting.   
      
   >   
   > > >The ignorant, the gullible, those who   
   > > > have an abnormal dread of death.   
   > >   
   > > Please tell us what a normal dread of death is.   
   >   
   > ##  You're a grown man, figure that one out for yourself.   
      
   No, you're the expert, it seems.  Plus you don't   
   accept what I have figured out for myself.  So, please   
   tell us the difference between an abnormal dread of   
   death and a normal dread of death.   
      
   >   
   > > Perhaps you embrace death with open arms -- but   
   > > it's quite normal to view death as the Bible does,   
   > > as an "enemy" (1Cor 15:26),   
   >   
   > ##  So we're all supposed to DREAD the inevitable?  Face it Mark, we're all   
   > going to die some day.  With open arms?  In some cases, YES.   As  volunteer   
   > in a large NY Hospital I saw those suffering with the diseases your Jehovah   
   > created make them pray for death.  Yes, death was welcomed with open arms   
   > for people living in agony week after week.   
      
   You're the one making claims that JWs play on   
   "an abnormal dread of death."  It's up to you   
   to substantiate your claims.   
      
   You're the one saying things like "we're all supposed   
   to DREAD the inevitable?"  I never said that.   
      
   It is true that unless things change, everyone will   
   eventually die.  How each one faces death varies.   
   Some do dread death, while others virtually ignore it.   
      
   JW teachings help JWs *avoid* having a 'dread of death'   
   because our faith in the Bible gives us a hope for   
   the future (life again via resurrection).   
      
   Jehovah created life.  Taking the risk of oversimplifying   
   things, diseases are the result of life being out of   
   balance.  In large measure, man is responsible for that   
   out-of-balance condition.   
      
   To take one example, take smoking.  Jehovah didn't   
   create cigarettes and force people to smoke them.   
   That was a human choice.  Even you were a smoker of   
   your own free will (and speaking of "free", you   
   alleged that you never actually ever paid for your   
   cigarettes, but got them free from an uncle, or some   
   relative).  When people die an agonizing death due   
   to the long-term effects of smoking, you can't blame   
   God for that.   
      
   >   
   > and quite a relief   
   > > to put faith in the Bible's promise that one day   
   > > death itself will be "destroyed" (NIV) or "abolished"   
   > > (NASB).   
   >   
   > ##  Only if you NEED to believe in fairy tales to get you through the   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)