XPost: alt.atheism, alt.flame.jesus.christ, alt.talk.creationism   
   XPost: sci.skeptic   
      
   On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 06:49:13 -0600, Mitchell Holman  wrote:   
   .   
   >mur.@.not. wrote in news:uq6caa9m313k39q7h035qt71loj89nn0b3@4ax.com:   
   >   
   >> On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 08:45:31 -0600, Mitchell Holman    
   >> wrote: .   
   >>>On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 07:44:17 -0500, mur.@.not. wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 12:34:54 -0600, Mitchell Holman    
   >>>>wrote: .   
   >>>>>mur.@.not. wrote in news:6i4o9apcm33n69742o4f1vmiarr43cti84@4ax.com:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:04:15 -0600, Mitchell Holman   
   >>>>>>  wrote: .   
   >>>>>>>On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 01:57:44 -0500, mur.@.not. wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>On Sun, 07 Dec 2014 07:50:44 -0600, Mitchell Holman   
   >>>>>>>> wrote: .   
   >>>>>>>>>mur.@.not. wrote in   
   >>>>>>>>>news:98l88atne0eugqm973n04enllrisnjbvda@4ax.com:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:23:21 -0600, Mitchell Holman   
   >>>>>>>>>>  wrote: .   
   >>>>>>>>>>>felix_unger  wrote in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>news:ceego4Fa945U1@mid.individual.net:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 06-December-2014 5:00 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:09:01 +1100, the following appeared   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger :   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05-December-2014 4:02 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:22:30 +1100, the following   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by felix_unger   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03-December-2014 10:43 PM, Malte Runz wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "felix_unger"  skrev i meddelelsen   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ce7l2tFg3jaU1@mid.individual.net...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... 'A miracle is evidence of God even if we know that   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the miracle never happened.' I've never said any such   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing, nor would I, as it's a distortion of my   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position on the matter.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is what you wrote 05-11-2014:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "the reports of miracles are evidence for the existence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of God, whether they occurred or not, ..."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "reports" of miracles, you terminal moron!   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Reports" is irrelevant, but "...whether they occurred or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not" seems to support his contention of "even if we know   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they never happened".   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports of miracles as such are evidence for God, just as   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports of UFO's are evidence for UFO's, but since we   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't KNOW if any reports are accurate/false when they're   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> made, ie. if there was actually any miracle (or UFO) ,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they remain as evidence. however, should any report later   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be shown/proven to be false, then there was no miracle in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that case, and that report ceases to be evidence for God.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Any such report, if not shown/proven to be true (to the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> best of our ability to determine), like *any* report of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> extraordinary actions or observations in *any* field, is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly assumed to be false until shown otherwise. To put   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> it more simply, we don't believe extraordinary things until   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're shown to be true, rather than believing them unless   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're shown to be false, since proving something is false   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> is both far more difficult to accomplish and a shift in the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> burden of proof of a claim away from the claimant.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying that they should be believed to be true, only   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> that they form evidence for the event. why are the reports   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> of UFO's called evidence for UFO's? likewise reports of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> miracles are evidence for God.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     Such is the distinction between evidence and proof.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>     Apparently from the atheist pov there is no distinction,   
   >>>>>>>>>>     since they can't   
   >>>>>>>>>> distinguish between evidence of God's existence and proof of   
   >>>>>>>>>> God's existence. Not a single one of them can, afaik.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     We have seen your "evidence".   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    Like what?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     Now post your PROOF.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    I don't believe there is any, or any good reason why there   
   >>>>>>>>    should be PROOF   
   >>>>>>>>even if God really does exist.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>    So you admit your claims are just speculation.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>     Present whatever claims you want people to think you're   
   >>>>>>     referring to.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Why do you think there should be proof of it if God does exist?   
   >>>>>> What do you think it should be? Where do you think it should be?   
   >>>>>> Why do you think it should be made available to us?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>      So there is no proof   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    The challenge remains for you atheists to explain why you think   
   >>>>    there should   
   >>>>be. None of you can even imagine any respectable reason why you think   
   >>>>there should be...LOL...yet all of you apparently think there should.   
   >>>>Just describing your position is quite amusing.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>and you believe it anyway.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    No I don't have a belief. I consider the possibility that God   
   >>>>    doesn't exist,   
   >>>>and also the possibilities that he does exist.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>      Why?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    Because as yet I have no reason to put faith in his existence or   
   >>>>nonexistence so I consider both.   
   >>>   
   >>>      Do you extend that same belief to all gods?   
   >>   
   >>     One of the basic starting lines you people can't get as "far" as   
   >>     is the fact   
   >> that if there is a God associated with Earth,   
   >   
   >   
   > "If" there is a god? You don't sound too sure of yourself.   
      
       I'm not sure. I do consider the possibility, and am confident about some   
   things if there is a God associated with Earth.   
      
   >> people have a number of   
   >> differing beliefs about "him" and refer to "him" in a number of   
   >> different ways. To me that fact is basic and easy to understand. To   
   >> you atheists it's incomprehensible.   
   >>   
   >   
   >   If all religions have the same god why do "his"   
   >followers kill each other over the various ways of   
   >referring to him?   
      
       I don't claim to know. How do you think it matters? My guess is that people   
   would kill each other using some different excuse in most cases, since from my   
   position it seems things are usually more about personal interests than actual   
   religious matters. Things like land, money, power, oil maybe, food...stuff like   
   that.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)