XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
   From: David@block.net   
      
   On 6/5/2015 2:23 PM, mur wrote:   
   > On Fri, 29 May 2015 21:37:14 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   > .   
   >> On 5/22/2015 10:03 AM, mur wrote:   
   >>> On Fri, 08 May 2015 23:37:57 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   >>> .   
   >>>> On 5/8/2015 8:03 PM, mur wrote:   
   >>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:42:48 -0600, David Johnston    
   wrote:   
   >>>>> .   
   >>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 19:59:12 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:48:48 -0600, David Johnston    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:56:00 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:15:01 -0600, David Johnston    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/2015 3:42 PM, David Johnston wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/2015 3:03 PM, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:52:21 -0600, David Johnston    
   David@block.net>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:02:15 -0400, mur. <> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:23:35 -0600, David Johnston   
      
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:33:12 -0400, mur. <> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:37:05 -0600, David Johnston   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/18/2015 5:11 PM, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not actually supporting your case there.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yeah it does.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your quotation is quite clear.  All sinned.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          That's a very common belief. In fact I've never   
   met anyone   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who didn't   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe it.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus we are all damned to hell   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        Not necessarily. Do you have any clue why?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because if Hell doesn't exist, we aren't damned to it.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>        And if it does?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by default regardless of our particular   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sins.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         That would depend on the beliefs of the   
   individual.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which are whatever the individual wants them to be.  Hence   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prospect of going to prison being a more likely deterrent.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          So you're saying we should believe no group of   
   people is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more likely to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abuse children than any other?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.  That's not what I'm saying. And really I can't recall   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time that someone started a sentence with "So you're saying"   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately conveyed what the person was saying.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        Well so far you've provided no reason to believe I   
   wasn't   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct this time.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It might in fact be the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case that atheists are statistically more likely to molest   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> children than   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church-goers.  You just haven't made a good argument for it   
   or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> established that the difference, if it exist is particularly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        You still haven't provided reason to believe I wasn't   
   correct.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes I have.  I've pointed out that Judeo-Christian religion   
   doesn't   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ban molestation.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>        How did you find that out?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> I read the Bible.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>         What does it say about people eating their own children   
   and their   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> own feces?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've pointed out that even if it did, the punishment   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it would be no more severe than it would be for being   
   alive.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>        We are told:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark 9:42   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me--to stumble,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung   
   around   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their neck and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they were thrown into the sea."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> That is an admonition against drawing children into sinful   
   behavior.  It   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> has no bearing on sex, assuming you marry the 12 year old first.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>         People had a different interpretation of maturity back in   
   those   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> days,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> probably in part because they didn't live half as long as they do   
   today.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually from the impression I get it's not that "they" thought   
   it was   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> ok for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> girls to marry at an "earlier" age, but it's more like "we" think   
   they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> should   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> wait until a later age than people in most of human history.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so there may be more to it than you want people to believe.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just kind of assumed that the many reports of child   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> molesting in connection to religious institutions are   
   anomalous or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fabricated   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        Try providing reason to believe that.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's what you said you were doing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>        Present your quote(s).   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Were you lying?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>        No, but so far I must suspect that you may be.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh.  My mistake.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>         You didn't provide your quote(s).   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> So instead your position is that the reports of child   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> molesting in connection to religious institutions are factual   
   and not   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> anomalous.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>         I feel sure that some are and some are not,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> What do you imagine the word "anomalous" means?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> And the incidentally the reason I didn't provide the quote was   
   because   
   >>>>>>>>>> sifting through dozens and dozens of your e-mails to find it would   
   take   
      
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