XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism
XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality
On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:18:56 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
.
>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:34 -0400, mur wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:22:11 -0400, Vincent Maycock wrote:
>>.
>>>On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:03:56 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 18:17:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock wrote:
>>>>.
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:22:20 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 30 May 2015 12:36:34 +0100, "Alex W." wrote:
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>On Fri, 29 May 2015 21:36:27 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2015 10:03 AM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 08 May 2015 22:01:33 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2015 8:03 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:49:38 -0600, David Johnston <
avid@block.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2015 5:58 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:45:06 -0500, duke
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:58:32 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2015 7:24 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:07:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/2015 2:14 PM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:32:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2015 5:28 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too much hair splitting. Evidence exists for the
presence of God - it can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> denied. One may not like it, but none the less, it
stares them in the face,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hence:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An atheist denies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that you regard consistency as too much trouble to
bother with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You see wrong. I'm highly consistent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either it can't be denied, or atheists deny it. Pick one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The item that nails the supposed atheist is that he rejects
evidence we see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah. I've seen a bible too. But Harry Potter was a more fun
read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But not any truth at all. Unless you think you can ride a
broom stick.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> These people can't distinguish between things we know are
fiction and things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one could know are fiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Really? So we can't know that there was no world wide flood that
wiped
>>>>>>>>>>>> out all life on land some four thousand years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure we can.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then what were you referring to?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We can't know if Jesus was a virgin birth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that matter when the only indication that he was a virgin birth
is
>>>>>>>> a book that claims that all life on land was wiped out four thousand
>>>>>>>> years ago?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We know it doesn't matter because we now know that the issue
>>>>>>>of Mary's virginity was a translation error.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How did we find that out?
>>>>>
>>>>>Alex is talking about the passage from Isaiah that supposedly predicts
>>>>>Jesus' virgin birth centuries in advance of its supposed occurrence.
>>>>>It's difficult to tell *when* we first learned that there was a
>>>>>mistranslation there. The Hebrew just means "young girl," and I
>>>>>suppose everyone who can read Hebrew would have known about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>In the Gospels, Jesus is clearly portrayed as being born to a virgin
>>>>>girl (part of the non-historical portion of the Gospels -- AKA most
>>>>>of each of them); there's no mistranslation there.
>>>>>
>>>>>But the Isaiah passage has more problems than just having been
>>>>>mistranslated for centuries: it's not even talking about Jesus to
>>>>>begin.
>>>>>
>>>>>The setting of the prophecy is the land of Israel soon before it was
>>>>>demolished by Assyria, and in the story Isaiah tells King Ahaz about
>>>>>the timescale of the military problems he would have when dealing with
>>>>>Assyria --
>>>>>
>>>>>namely, about as long as it would take for a young woman to become
>>>>>pregnant and raise a child that was old enough to eat curds and honey,
>>>>>and choose right from wrong; that is, Ahaz's military destruction
>>>>>would happen *that quickly.*
>>>>>
>>>>>So Isaiah 7 (the reference in question) isn't even referring to
>>>>>Jesus, and if the bizarre idea of a virgin birth were found in this
>>>>>passage, it would refer to the child that King Ahaz knew about that
>>>>>Isaiah was threatening him with, and not to Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> Then why does it refer to Jesus having had a virgin birth in the Koran?
>>>
>>>Probably because Islam was founded long after the details of
>>>Christianity were well-known in the Middle East, so if someone wanted
>>>to describe Christianity at that time, he would just use the
>>>terminology that he heard Christians use to describe their own ideas,
>>>when he described them himself.
>>>
>>>So in other words, Muslims got the idea from the Christians they knew
>>>about; they didn't have some secret access to the nature of Jesus'
>>>birth.
>>
>> Where in the Bible does it refer to Jesus explaining things when he was
>>still in the cradle, like it does in the Koran:
>>
>>[Maryam 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying
>>him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
>>
>>[Maryam 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked
>>man nor was thy mother a harlot.
>>
>>[Maryam 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we
>>talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?
>>
>>[Maryam 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath
>>given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
>>
>>[Maryam 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may
>>be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I
>>remain alive,
>>
>>[Maryam 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore
>>me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
>>
>>[Maryam 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I
>>die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
>>
>>[Maryam 19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement
>>of the truth concerning which they doubt.
>>
>> ÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷
>>
>>[Al-Imran 3:45] (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary!
>>Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is
>>the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the
>>Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
>>
>>[Al-Imran 3:46] He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his
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