XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism
XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality
On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 09:00:47 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
.
>On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:19:30 -0400, mur wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:18:56 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>.
>>>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:34 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:22:11 -0400, Vincent Maycock wrote:
>>>>.
>>>>>On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:03:56 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 18:17:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:22:20 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sat, 30 May 2015 12:36:34 +0100, "Alex W."
wrote:
>>>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 29 May 2015 21:36:27 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2015 10:03 AM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 08 May 2015 22:01:33 -0600, David Johnston <
avid@block.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2015 8:03 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:49:38 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2015 5:58 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:45:06 -0500, duke
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:58:32 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2015 7:24 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:07:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/2015 2:14 PM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:32:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2015 5:28 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too much hair splitting. Evidence exists for the
presence of God - it can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> denied. One may not like it, but none the less, it
stares them in the face,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hence:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An atheist denies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that you regard consistency as too much trouble to
bother with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You see wrong. I'm highly consistent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either it can't be denied, or atheists deny it. Pick one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The item that nails the supposed atheist is that he rejects
evidence we see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah. I've seen a bible too. But Harry Potter was a more
fun read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But not any truth at all. Unless you think you can ride a
broom stick.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These people can't distinguish between things we know
are fiction and things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one could know are fiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really? So we can't know that there was no world wide flood
that wiped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out all life on land some four thousand years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure we can.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then what were you referring to?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We can't know if Jesus was a virgin birth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does that matter when the only indication that he was a virgin
birth is
>>>>>>>>>> a book that claims that all life on land was wiped out four thousand
>>>>>>>>>> years ago?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>We know it doesn't matter because we now know that the issue
>>>>>>>>>of Mary's virginity was a translation error.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How did we find that out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Alex is talking about the passage from Isaiah that supposedly predicts
>>>>>>>Jesus' virgin birth centuries in advance of its supposed occurrence.
>>>>>>>It's difficult to tell *when* we first learned that there was a
>>>>>>>mistranslation there. The Hebrew just means "young girl," and I
>>>>>>>suppose everyone who can read Hebrew would have known about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In the Gospels, Jesus is clearly portrayed as being born to a virgin
>>>>>>>girl (part of the non-historical portion of the Gospels -- AKA most
>>>>>>>of each of them); there's no mistranslation there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But the Isaiah passage has more problems than just having been
>>>>>>>mistranslated for centuries: it's not even talking about Jesus to
>>>>>>>begin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The setting of the prophecy is the land of Israel soon before it was
>>>>>>>demolished by Assyria, and in the story Isaiah tells King Ahaz about
>>>>>>>the timescale of the military problems he would have when dealing with
>>>>>>>Assyria --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>namely, about as long as it would take for a young woman to become
>>>>>>>pregnant and raise a child that was old enough to eat curds and honey,
>>>>>>>and choose right from wrong; that is, Ahaz's military destruction
>>>>>>>would happen *that quickly.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So Isaiah 7 (the reference in question) isn't even referring to
>>>>>>>Jesus, and if the bizarre idea of a virgin birth were found in this
>>>>>>>passage, it would refer to the child that King Ahaz knew about that
>>>>>>>Isaiah was threatening him with, and not to Jesus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then why does it refer to Jesus having had a virgin birth in the
Koran?
>>>>>
>>>>>Probably because Islam was founded long after the details of
>>>>>Christianity were well-known in the Middle East, so if someone wanted
>>>>>to describe Christianity at that time, he would just use the
>>>>>terminology that he heard Christians use to describe their own ideas,
>>>>>when he described them himself.
>>>>>
>>>>>So in other words, Muslims got the idea from the Christians they knew
>>>>>about; they didn't have some secret access to the nature of Jesus'
>>>>>birth.
>>>>
>>>> Where in the Bible does it refer to Jesus explaining things when he was
>>>>still in the cradle, like it does in the Koran:
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying
>>>>him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked
>>>>man nor was thy mother a harlot.
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we
>>>>talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath
>>>>given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may
>>>>be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I
>>>>remain alive,
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore
>>>>me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
>>>>
>>>>[Maryam 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I
>>>>die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
>>>>
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