XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
      
   On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   .   
   >On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>.   
   >>>On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>snip   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    And you would of course be called on personally to verify that   
   they were   
   >>>>>>>>made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how you would   
   know they   
   >>>>>>>>were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof" here, just   
   >>>>>>>evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look there's some   
   >>>>>>>footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those footprints,   
   >>>>>>>since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was nearby."   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic things to   
   show of his   
   >>>>>>>>existence.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and experience   
   >>>>>>>rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and so on.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other evidence he left   
   a   
   >>>>>>thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to keep   
   providing it   
   >>>>>>over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    Being an authority on this tell us how you would also verify the   
   >>>>>>>>authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should be on it.   
   What sort   
   >>>>>>>>of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say something like   
   >>>>>>>"And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky and   
   >>>>>>>walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even proof,   
   >>>>>>>depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't need to come   
   perform   
   >>>>>>tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he apparently doesn't   
   care   
   >>>>>>about anyway.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about   
   >>>>>people"),   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    My impression is that he doesn't care about some people. What makes you   
   >>>>think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>   
   >>>It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>   
   >>    In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send other   
   Christians   
   >>to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say Catholics   
   aren't   
   >>Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a preacher   
   tell   
   >>the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God would send his   
   >>own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work against him but   
   I   
   >>sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about people like you,   
   >>and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you think he   
   >>should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun to see you   
   >>try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >   
   >In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has other   
   >things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >   
   >snip   
   >   
   >>>>>an   
   >>>>>omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe it is?   
   >>>   
   >>>I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to   
   >>>itself.   
   >>   
   >>    Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >   
   >This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at   
   >the same time.   
   >   
   >So if we assume he can,   
      
       I don't. You do.   
      
   >then the resolution to the conundrum would be   
   >that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;   
      
       You live in your own universe of make believe.   
      
   >in this idea, he   
   >exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum   
   >mechanics.   
   >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>you think there should be, WHERE you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>think it should be,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>Anywhere.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>In the snow or sand?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    How you would verify? To start with, explain this:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Footprints   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>These animal tracks are scarcely different in quality from the   
   >>>>>>>evidence for Bigfoot, what with all the questions indicating that it's   
   >>>>>>>a hoax combined with the kind of tracks left by hopping wood mice.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    You would no doubt say something similar about footprints of God   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>If it was Bigfoot-grade, with allegations of "hoax" swirling about it,   
   >>>>>I would probably say the same thing, yes.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    From your superior position how would instruct God to make his   
   particular   
   >>>>"footprints" verifiable to you, so you could verify them to the rest of   
   >>>>humanity?   
   >>>   
   >>>Get a news team out there as soon as possible, or maybe even allow us   
   >>>to watch the footprints appear as he "walks beside us in a   
   >>>relationship with him."   
   >>   
   >>    Why shouldn't he have done something similar in the past and not need to   
   do   
   >>it again?   
   >   
   >There's nothing in theology that restricts God to doing things only   
   >once.   
      
       So if God does exist you feel that YOU should be able to arrange his   
   schedule. HILARIOUS!!!   
      
   >>There's also the basic starting line none of you can get as far as,   
   >>which is that at this point in time he's not going to provide proof of his   
   >>existence.   
   >   
   >Someone who refuses to provide evidence for his existence effectively   
   >does not exist.   
      
       If he does exist he's obviously good with the idea that people like you   
   believe he does not. That is one thing we can accept as fact.   
      
   >snip   
   >   
   >>>>>That shouldn't be a problem for an omnipotent God;   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    What gives you faith that omnipotence is even possible and not a gross   
   >>>>exaggeration?   
   >>>   
   >>>If you don't believe in omnipotence, just substitute "extreme power"   
   >>>in its place in my statements; it doesn't make that much of a   
   >>>difference.   
   >>   
   >>    It makes a huge difference, so we'll count that as another basic starting   
      
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