XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism
XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: petite.box-house.girl@rec.arts.female.socks
mur wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:05:46 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
> .
>> On 7/17/2015 10:31 AM, mur wrote:
>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 09:00:47 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>> .
>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:19:30 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:18:56 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>> .
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:34 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:22:11 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:03:56 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 18:17:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:22:20 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 May 2015 12:36:34 +0100, "Alex W."
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 May 2015 21:36:27 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2015 10:03 AM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 08 May 2015 22:01:33 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2015 8:03 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:49:38 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2015 5:58 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:45:06 -0500, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:58:32 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2015 7:24 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:07:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/2015 2:14 PM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:32:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2015 5:28 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too much hair splitting. Evidence exists for the
presence of God - it can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> denied. One may not like it, but none the less, it
stares them in the face,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hence:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An atheist denies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that you regard consistency as too much trouble
to bother with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You see wrong. I'm highly consistent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either it can't be denied, or atheists deny it. Pick
one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The item that nails the supposed atheist is that he
rejects evidence we see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah. I've seen a bible too. But Harry Potter was a
more fun read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But not any truth at all. Unless you think you can ride a
broom stick.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These people can't distinguish between things we
know are fiction and things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one could know are fiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really? So we can't know that there was no world wide flood
that wiped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out all life on land some four thousand years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure we can.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then what were you referring to?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't know if Jesus was a virgin birth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that matter when the only indication that he was a virgin
birth is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a book that claims that all life on land was wiped out four
thousand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We know it doesn't matter because we now know that the issue
>>>>>>>>>>>> of Mary's virginity was a translation error.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How did we find that out?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alex is talking about the passage from Isaiah that supposedly
predicts
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus' virgin birth centuries in advance of its supposed occurrence.
>>>>>>>>>> It's difficult to tell *when* we first learned that there was a
>>>>>>>>>> mistranslation there. The Hebrew just means "young girl," and I
>>>>>>>>>> suppose everyone who can read Hebrew would have known about it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the Gospels, Jesus is clearly portrayed as being born to a virgin
>>>>>>>>>> girl (part of the non-historical portion of the Gospels -- AKA most
>>>>>>>>>> of each of them); there's no mistranslation there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the Isaiah passage has more problems than just having been
>>>>>>>>>> mistranslated for centuries: it's not even talking about Jesus to
>>>>>>>>>> begin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The setting of the prophecy is the land of Israel soon before it was
>>>>>>>>>> demolished by Assyria, and in the story Isaiah tells King Ahaz about
>>>>>>>>>> the timescale of the military problems he would have when dealing
with
>>>>>>>>>> Assyria --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> namely, about as long as it would take for a young woman to become
>>>>>>>>>> pregnant and raise a child that was old enough to eat curds and
honey,
>>>>>>>>>> and choose right from wrong; that is, Ahaz's military destruction
>>>>>>>>>> would happen *that quickly.*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So Isaiah 7 (the reference in question) isn't even referring to
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus, and if the bizarre idea of a virgin birth were found in this
>>>>>>>>>> passage, it would refer to the child that King Ahaz knew about that
>>>>>>>>>> Isaiah was threatening him with, and not to Jesus.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then why does it refer to Jesus having had a virgin birth in
the Koran?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Probably because Islam was founded long after the details of
>>>>>>>> Christianity were well-known in the Middle East, so if someone wanted
>>>>>>>> to describe Christianity at that time, he would just use the
>>>>>>>> terminology that he heard Christians use to describe their own ideas,
>>>>>>>> when he described them himself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So in other words, Muslims got the idea from the Christians they knew
>>>>>>>> about; they didn't have some secret access to the nature of Jesus'
>>>>>>>> birth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where in the Bible does it refer to Jesus explaining things when
he was
>>>>>>> still in the cradle, like it does in the Koran:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Maryam 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying
>>>>>>> him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Maryam 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked
>>>>>>> man nor was thy mother a harlot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Maryam 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we
>>>>>>> talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?
>>>>>>>
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