XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism
XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality
On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 07:35:12 GMT, Ghaythah ibn Shahid Abdul-Shahid
wrote:
.
>mur wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:05:46 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>> .
>>> On 7/17/2015 10:31 AM, mur wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 09:00:47 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:19:30 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:18:56 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:34 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:22:11 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:03:56 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 18:17:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock <
am100@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:22:20 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 May 2015 12:36:34 +0100, "Alex W." wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 May 2015 21:36:27 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2015 10:03 AM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 08 May 2015 22:01:33 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/8/2015 8:03 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:49:38 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2015 5:58 PM, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:45:06 -0500, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:58:32 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/2015 7:24 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:07:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/2015 2:14 PM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:32:02 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2015 5:28 AM, duke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too much hair splitting. Evidence exists for the
presence of God - it can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> denied. One may not like it, but none the less, it
stares them in the face,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hence:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An atheist denies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that you regard consistency as too much
trouble to bother with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You see wrong. I'm highly consistent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either it can't be denied, or atheists deny it. Pick
one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The item that nails the supposed atheist is that he
rejects evidence we see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah. I've seen a bible too. But Harry Potter was a
more fun read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But not any truth at all. Unless you think you can ride
a broom stick.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These people can't distinguish between things we
know are fiction and things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one could know are fiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really? So we can't know that there was no world wide
flood that wiped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out all life on land some four thousand years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure we can.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then what were you referring to?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can't know if Jesus was a virgin birth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that matter when the only indication that he was a virgin
birth is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a book that claims that all life on land was wiped out four
thousand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know it doesn't matter because we now know that the issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Mary's virginity was a translation error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How did we find that out?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Alex is talking about the passage from Isaiah that supposedly
predicts
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus' virgin birth centuries in advance of its supposed
occurrence.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's difficult to tell *when* we first learned that there was a
>>>>>>>>>>> mistranslation there. The Hebrew just means "young girl," and I
>>>>>>>>>>> suppose everyone who can read Hebrew would have known about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In the Gospels, Jesus is clearly portrayed as being born to a
virgin
>>>>>>>>>>> girl (part of the non-historical portion of the Gospels -- AKA
most
>>>>>>>>>>> of each of them); there's no mistranslation there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But the Isaiah passage has more problems than just having been
>>>>>>>>>>> mistranslated for centuries: it's not even talking about Jesus to
>>>>>>>>>>> begin.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The setting of the prophecy is the land of Israel soon before it
was
>>>>>>>>>>> demolished by Assyria, and in the story Isaiah tells King Ahaz
about
>>>>>>>>>>> the timescale of the military problems he would have when dealing
with
>>>>>>>>>>> Assyria --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> namely, about as long as it would take for a young woman to become
>>>>>>>>>>> pregnant and raise a child that was old enough to eat curds and
honey,
>>>>>>>>>>> and choose right from wrong; that is, Ahaz's military destruction
>>>>>>>>>>> would happen *that quickly.*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So Isaiah 7 (the reference in question) isn't even referring to
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus, and if the bizarre idea of a virgin birth were found in
this
>>>>>>>>>>> passage, it would refer to the child that King Ahaz knew about that
>>>>>>>>>>> Isaiah was threatening him with, and not to Jesus.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then why does it refer to Jesus having had a virgin birth in
the Koran?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Probably because Islam was founded long after the details of
>>>>>>>>> Christianity were well-known in the Middle East, so if someone wanted
>>>>>>>>> to describe Christianity at that time, he would just use the
>>>>>>>>> terminology that he heard Christians use to describe their own ideas,
>>>>>>>>> when he described them himself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So in other words, Muslims got the idea from the Christians they knew
>>>>>>>>> about; they didn't have some secret access to the nature of Jesus'
>>>>>>>>> birth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where in the Bible does it refer to Jesus explaining things when
he was
>>>>>>>> still in the cradle, like it does in the Koran:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Maryam 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying
>>>>>>>> him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
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