XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
      
   On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 00:39:20 -0400, Olrik  wrote:   
      
   >On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>>>.   
   >>>>>On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>.   
   >>>>>>>On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    And you would of course be called on personally to verify that   
   they were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how you   
   would know they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof" here,   
   just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look there's   
   some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those   
   footprints,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was   
   nearby."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic things   
   to show of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and experience   
   >>>>>>>>>>>rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and so on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other evidence he   
   left a   
   >>>>>>>>>>thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to keep   
   providing it   
   >>>>>>>>>>over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    Being an authority on this tell us how you would also verify   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should be on   
   it. What sort   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say something like   
   >>>>>>>>>>>"And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even proof,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't need to   
   come perform   
   >>>>>>>>>>tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he apparently   
   doesn't care   
   >>>>>>>>>>about anyway.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about   
   >>>>>>>>>people"),   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    My impression is that he doesn't care about some people. What   
   makes you   
   >>>>>>>>think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send other   
   Christians   
   >>>>>>to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say Catholics   
   aren't   
   >>>>>>Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a   
   preacher tell   
   >>>>>>the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God would   
   send his   
   >>>>>>own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work against him   
   but I   
   >>>>>>sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about people like   
   you,   
   >>>>>>and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you think   
   he   
   >>>>>>should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun to   
   see you   
   >>>>>>try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has other   
   >>>>>things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>snip   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>an   
   >>>>>>>>>omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe it is?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>>>>>coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to   
   >>>>>>>itself.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >>>>>reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at   
   >>>>>the same time.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>So if we assume he can,   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    I don't. You do.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>then the resolution to the conundrum would be   
   >>>>>that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    You live in your own universe of make believe.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>in this idea, he   
   >>>>>exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum   
   >>>>>mechanics.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you think there should be, WHERE you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>think it should be,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anywhere.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>In the snow or sand?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    How you would verify? To start with, explain this:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Footprints   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>These animal tracks are scarcely different in quality from the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>evidence for Bigfoot, what with all the questions indicating that   
   it's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>a hoax combined with the kind of tracks left by hopping wood mice.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    You would no doubt say something similar about footprints of God   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>If it was Bigfoot-grade, with allegations of "hoax" swirling about it,   
   >>>>>>>>>I would probably say the same thing, yes.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    From your superior position how would instruct God to make his   
   particular   
   >>>>>>>>"footprints" verifiable to you, so you could verify them to the rest of   
   >>>>>>>>humanity?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>Get a news team out there as soon as possible, or maybe even allow us   
   >>>>>>>to watch the footprints appear as he "walks beside us in a   
   >>>>>>>relationship with him."   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    Why shouldn't he have done something similar in the past and not   
   need to do   
   >>>>>>it again?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>There's nothing in theology that restricts God to doing things only   
   >>>>>once.   
   >>>>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)