XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
   From: olrik666@gmail.com   
      
   Le 2015-08-06 22:18, mur a écrit :   
   > On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 00:39:20 -0400, Olrik  wrote:   
   >   
   >> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>> .   
   >>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   vam100@aol.com> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     And you would of course be called on personally to verify   
   that they were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how you   
   would know they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof" here,   
   just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look there's   
   some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those   
   footprints,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was   
   nearby."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic   
   things to show of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and experience   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and so   
   on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other evidence   
   he left a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to keep   
   providing it   
   >>>>>>>>>>> over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Being an authority on this tell us how you would also verify   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should be   
   on it. What sort   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say something   
   like   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> "And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even   
   proof,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't need   
   to come perform   
   >>>>>>>>>>> tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he apparently   
   doesn't care   
   >>>>>>>>>>> about anyway.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about   
   >>>>>>>>>> people"),   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     My impression is that he doesn't care about some people. What   
   makes you   
   >>>>>>>>> think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>     In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send other   
   Christians   
   >>>>>>> to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say   
   Catholics aren't   
   >>>>>>> Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a   
   preacher tell   
   >>>>>>> the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God would   
   send his   
   >>>>>>> own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work against   
   him but I   
   >>>>>>> sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about people   
   like you,   
   >>>>>>> and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you   
   think he   
   >>>>>>> should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun to   
   see you   
   >>>>>>> try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has other   
   >>>>>> things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> an   
   >>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe it is?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>>>>>> coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to   
   >>>>>>>> itself.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>     Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >>>>>> reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at   
   >>>>>> the same time.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> So if we assume he can,   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>     I don't. You do.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> then the resolution to the conundrum would be   
   >>>>>> that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>     You live in your own universe of make believe.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> in this idea, he   
   >>>>>> exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum   
   >>>>>> mechanics.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think there should be, WHERE you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it should be,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anywhere.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the snow or sand?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     How you would verify? To start with, explain this:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Footprints   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> These animal tracks are scarcely different in quality from the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for Bigfoot, what with all the questions indicating that   
   it's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> a hoax combined with the kind of tracks left by hopping wood mice.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     You would no doubt say something similar about footprints of   
   God   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> If it was Bigfoot-grade, with allegations of "hoax" swirling about   
   it,   
   >>>>>>>>>> I would probably say the same thing, yes.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
      
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