XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
      
   On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:33:30 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   .   
   >On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:18:51 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 23:14:34 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   >>.   
   >>>On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>.   
   >>>>>>>On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>.   
   >>>>>>>>>On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   vam100@aol.com> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    And you would of course be called on personally to verify   
   that they were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how you   
   would know they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof" here,   
   just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look there's   
   some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those   
   footprints,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was   
   nearby."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic   
   things to show of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and experience   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and so   
   on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other evidence   
   he left a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to keep   
   providing it   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Being an authority on this tell us how you would also verify   
   the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should be   
   on it. What sort   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say something   
   like   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>"And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even   
   proof,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't need   
   to come perform   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he apparently   
   doesn't care   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>about anyway.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>people"),   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    My impression is that he doesn't care about some people. What   
   makes you   
   >>>>>>>>>>think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send other   
   Christians   
   >>>>>>>>to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say   
   Catholics aren't   
   >>>>>>>>Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a   
   preacher tell   
   >>>>>>>>the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God would   
   send his   
   >>>>>>>>own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work against   
   him but I   
   >>>>>>>>sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about people   
   like you,   
   >>>>>>>>and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you   
   think he   
   >>>>>>>>should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun to   
   see you   
   >>>>>>>>try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has other   
   >>>>>>>things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>snip   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>    I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe it is?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>>>>>>>coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to   
   >>>>>>>>>itself.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>    Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >>>>>>>reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at   
   >>>>>>>the same time.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>So if we assume he can,   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    I don't. You do.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>then the resolution to the conundrum would be   
   >>>>>>>that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    You live in your own universe of make believe.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>in this idea, he   
   >>>>>>>exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum   
   >>>>>>>mechanics.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you think there should be, WHERE you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>think it should be,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anywhere.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In the snow or sand?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>    How you would verify? To start with, explain this:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Footprints   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>These animal tracks are scarcely different in quality from the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>evidence for Bigfoot, what with all the questions indicating that   
   it's   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>a hoax combined with the kind of tracks left by hopping wood mice.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>    You would no doubt say something similar about footprints of   
   God   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>If it was Bigfoot-grade, with allegations of "hoax" swirling about   
   it,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>I would probably say the same thing, yes.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
      
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