XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
   From: ag@just_us.goov   
      
   On 8/11/2015 11:42 AM, mur wrote:   
   > On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:33:30 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   > .   
   >> On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:18:51 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 23:14:34 -0600, David Johnston  wrote:   
   >>> .   
   >>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock    
   vam100@aol.com> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
    wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And you would of course be called on personally to verify   
   that they were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how   
   you would know they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof"   
   here, just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look   
   there's some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those   
   footprints,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was   
   nearby."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic   
   things to show of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and   
   experience   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and so   
   on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other evidence   
   he left a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to keep   
   providing it   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Being an authority on this tell us how you would also   
   verify the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should be   
   on it. What sort   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say something   
   like   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even   
   proof,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't need   
   to come perform   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he apparently   
   doesn't care   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> about anyway.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> people"),   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     My impression is that he doesn't care about some people. What   
   makes you   
   >>>>>>>>>>> think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send other   
   Christians   
   >>>>>>>>> to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say   
   Catholics aren't   
   >>>>>>>>> Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a   
   preacher tell   
   >>>>>>>>> the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God would   
   send his   
   >>>>>>>>> own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work against   
   him but I   
   >>>>>>>>> sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about people   
   like you,   
   >>>>>>>>> and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you   
   think he   
   >>>>>>>>> should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun   
   to see you   
   >>>>>>>>> try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has other   
   >>>>>>>> things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe it   
   is?   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>>>>>>>> coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to   
   >>>>>>>>>> itself.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >>>>>>>> reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at   
   >>>>>>>> the same time.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> So if we assume he can,   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>     I don't. You do.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> then the resolution to the conundrum would be   
   >>>>>>>> that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>     You live in your own universe of make believe.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> in this idea, he   
   >>>>>>>> exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum   
   >>>>>>>> mechanics.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think there should be, WHERE you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it should be,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anywhere.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the snow or sand?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     How you would verify? To start with, explain this:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Footprints   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> These animal tracks are scarcely different in quality from the   
      
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