XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism
XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ag@just_us.goov
On 8/18/2015 7:52 PM, mur wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:49:45 -0700, Homer Stille Cummings wrote:
> .
>> On 8/11/2015 11:42 AM, mur wrote:
>>> On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:33:30 -0600, David Johnston wrote:
>>> .
>>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:18:51 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 23:14:34 -0600, David Johnston
wrote:
>>>>> .
>>>>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock
vam100@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try to explain WHAT type of evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any kind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Footprints in the sand or snow?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you would of course be called on personally to
verify that they were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all how
you would know they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were the real thing?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for "proof"
here, just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence. If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look
there's some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints in the snow again; probably God just made those
footprints,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he was
nearby."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less pathetic
things to show of his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and
experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??" and
so on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other
evidence he left a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have to
keep providing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over and over and over again?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A video-tape of God on the evening news?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Being an authority on this tell us how you would also
verify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine should
be on it. What sort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of sound track? What sort of narration?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say
something like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "And in other news today, God was seen flying through the sky
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walking on water."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly even
proof,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the circumstances, that God exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From my pov he would feel justified to think he doesn't
need to come perform
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he
apparently doesn't care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people"),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression is that he doesn't care about some people.
What makes you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think he cares about every one of them?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's standard Christian theology.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send
other Christians
>>>>>>>>>>> to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say
Catholics aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I heard a
preacher tell
>>>>>>>>>>> the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God
would send his
>>>>>>>>>>> own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work
against him but I
>>>>>>>>>>> sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about
people like you,
>>>>>>>>>>> and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If you
think he
>>>>>>>>>>> should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good fun
to see you
>>>>>>>>>>> try to explain why so please make an attempt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but has
other
>>>>>>>>>> things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you believe
it is?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically
>>>>>>>>>>>> coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not equal to
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which
>>>>>>>>>> reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be true at
>>>>>>>>>> the same time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So if we assume he can,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't. You do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> then the resolution to the conundrum would be
>>>>>>>>>> that God simultaneously can and can't lift the rock;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You live in your own universe of make believe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in this idea, he
>>>>>>>>>> exists in a superposition of states like those found in quantum
>>>>>>>>>> mechanics.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think there should be, WHERE you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it should be,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anywhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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