XPost: sac.politics, can.politics, alt.atheism   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality   
   From: ag@just_us.goov   
      
   On 8/18/2015 7:52 PM, mur wrote:   
   > On 8/11/2015 11:52 AM, Homer Stille Cummings wrote:   
   >> On 8/11/2015 11:43 AM, mur wrote:   
   >>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 23:51:53 -0400, Olrik  wrote:   
   >>> .   
   >>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:18:35 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 00:39:20 -0400, Olrik  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:03:11 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:32:45 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
   >>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:41:17 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:12:10 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
   >>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:31:46 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jul 2015 20:04:29 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
   >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> .   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:18:54 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:49:05 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:55:01 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:57:18 -0400, Vincent Maycock   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 16:20:49 -0400, mur wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Try to explain WHAT type of evidence   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any kind.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You have no idea.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Footprints in the sand or snow?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And you would of course be called on personally to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verify that they were   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made by God, since you're such an authority. Tell us all   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how you would know they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were the real thing?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know; but remember, mur I'm not looking for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "proof" here, just   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.   If people were always saying, "Oh, hey, look   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints in the snow again; probably God just made   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those footprints,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since I was just talking to him in prayer, and he said he   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was nearby."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us also how you know he didn't already leave   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprints a thousand years ago, or do other less   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathetic things to show of his   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might have, but let's stay with what we can see and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than made-up ideas that go "how do we know ...??"   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and so on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Why shouldn't he feel that the footprints and other   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence he left a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thousand years ago were good enough that he doesn't have   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to keep providing it   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over and over and over again?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A video-tape of God on the evening news?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Being an authority on this tell us how you would   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also verify the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authenticity of a video "tape", and what you imagine   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be on it. What sort   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of sound track? What sort of narration?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking David Muir from ABC World News would say   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "And in other news today, God was seen flying through the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sky and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walking on water."   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would consider that to be good evidence, and possibly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even proof,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the circumstances, that God exists.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From my pov he would feel justified to think he   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need to come perform   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tricks like that in an attempt to persuade people he   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently doesn't care   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about anyway.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible ("not caring   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people"),   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     My impression is that he doesn't care about some people.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> What makes you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> think he cares about every one of them?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It's standard Christian theology.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     In contrast to that some Christians believe God will send   
   >>>>>>>>>>> other Christians   
   >>>>>>>>>>> to Hell. I heard people in Methodist and Baptist churches say   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Catholics aren't   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Christians and will be sent to Hell. In a Church of God I   
   >>>>>>>>>>> heard a preacher tell   
   >>>>>>>>>>> the congregation Mormons aren't Christian. I don't believe God   
   >>>>>>>>>>> would send his   
   >>>>>>>>>>> own people to Hell, and maybe not even those of you who work   
   >>>>>>>>>>> against him but I   
   >>>>>>>>>>> sure can't think of any good reason why he should care about   
   >>>>>>>>>>> people like you,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> and things I've read in the Bible indicate that he doesn't. If   
   >>>>>>>>>>> you think he   
   >>>>>>>>>>> should give a shit about you though, I'm sure it would be good   
   >>>>>>>>>>> fun to see you   
   >>>>>>>>>>> try to explain why so please make an attempt.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> In standard Christian theology, God cares about the lost but   
   >>>>>>>>>> has other   
   >>>>>>>>>> things to contend with that prevent him from helping them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> snip   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> omnipotent being should be able to change it for the better.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>     I believe omnipotence is not possible. Why do you   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe it is?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe in it, but I do think the concept is logically   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> coherent, if you construct logical worlds where A is not   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> equal to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> itself.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>     Try doing it. So far it just sounds like more bullshit.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> This comes from the "rock so big you can't use it" paradox, which   
   >>>>>>>>>> reduces to the question of can God cause A and (not A) to be   
   >>>>>>>>>> true at   
   >>>>>>>>>> the same time.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> So if we assume he can,   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     I don't. You do.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
      
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