XPost: alt.atheism
From: me@nothere.biz
On 06-November-2015 7:56 AM, Smiler wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:59:57 -0500, mur wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:02:19 +0000 (UTC), Smil continued to wuss:
>>
>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2015 15:25:22 -0500, mur@. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:18:09 +0000 (UTC), Smil wussed:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:27:17 -0400, mur@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:52:15 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>>>> Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What "God"? Until you provide evidence that this god thing
>>>>>>>>> exists, anything you say about it is pure fantasy. You have to
>>>>>>>>> give a reason to accept that your god exists and that means
>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you having so much trouble understanding such a simple
>>>>>>>>> concept?
>>>>>>>> No, I don't have any trouble understanding you. You are using the
>>>>>>>> rule
>>>>>>>> ~Px then P(~x)
>>>>>>>> where Px means proof of x exists.
>>>>>>>> ~Px then P(~x) your inference rule ~P(~x) then P(x)
>>>>>>>> substitution x ==> ~x and excluded middle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which means that simultaneously to your statement 'until you
>>>>>>>> provide evidence that this god thing exists, anything you say
>>>>>>>> about it is pure fantasy', then according to classic logic you are
>>>>>>>> also saying 'until I provide evidence of that this god does not
>>>>>>>> exist, anything I say about what it isn't is pure fantasy'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you really want to be logical? What you claim is logic is
>>>>>>>> merely your belief that data has only one possible interpretation
>>>>>>>> as evidence. And further that the interpretation is only possible
>>>>>>>> when it benefits you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're doing religion, not logic. Real logic would you be
>>>>>>>> identifying your axiomatic inferences and then deriving theorems
>>>>>>>> according to some stated logic, usually classic logic with the
>>>>>>>> excluded middle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As to any notion that your religion is based rationality,
>>>>>>>> objectivity, or fairness, that is easily belied by your flat out
>>>>>>>> refusal to accept testimony of Roman historians and populations of
>>>>>>>> different cultures just because you don't like it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're just another bible thumper. The only the difference is the
>>>>>>>> title of your bible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way the New Testament doesn't obligate christians to
>>>>>>>> convert nonchristians, nor that christians are punished by their
>>>>>>>> god for the sins of others. So your demands to have christianity
>>>>>>>> proven true is only an obligation on yourself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if you really need a scary religion that demands nonbelievers
>>>>>>>> to convert or be killed, that would be Islam. But you don't live
>>>>>>>> where scary moslems live, so as long as it's others at risk
>>>>>>>> instead of yourself, you can dismiss it as cute, boutique, ethnic
>>>>>>>> belief.
>>>>>>> All of the above proves precisely what I, as an agnostic, believe...
>>>>>>> we just don't know, and we have no way of knowing. The existence of
>>>>>>> a god cannot be proven or disproven. When I look at the complexity
>>>>>>> of life and marvel at how well it works, and how it can reproduce
>>>>>>> itself, I think that there must be a Creator.
>>>>>> In great contrast to the strong atheists who can't even consider
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> possiblity in any realistic ways. Even so, they still believe their
>>>>>> mental inabilities make the somehow superior. Absurd thinking like
>>>>>> that make the atheists themselves evidence of God's existence by
>>>>>> being evidence of Satan (or whatever) having influence on weak human
>>>>>> minds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I ask this Creator what it's all about... what he wants from us
>>>>>>> and why we're here, I get no answers,
>>>>>>> only silence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I wonder at the complexity of the universe, I wonder where it
>>>>>>> came from, and how miraculous it all is. Why? From where? How?
>>>>>>> One day it occurred to me that believing in a Creator is no more of
>>>>>>> a stretch than believing in a Universe, and we know there is a
>>>>>>> Universe. Could there then be a Creator? Why not? Is he obligated
>>>>>>> to reveal himself to us or tell us why we're here?
>>>>>> If he were to give us all proof of his existence then we would be
>>>>>> more like
>>>>>> slaves to him, even those who are strong atheists. If he wants us to
>>>>>> have the freedom of thought we do have--if he wants things to be AS
>>>>>> THEY ARE--then he can't give us proof of his existence. That's one of
>>>>>> the basic starting lines atheists can't get as "far" as. They can't
>>>>>> get as "far" as the fact that if God wants things to be as they are,
>>>>>> they might very well be as they are. Another way that their mental
>>>>>> restrictions make them evidence....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. If there is a Creator, we may be nothing more than lab rats to
>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that's what I'm left with... As much as I want to know the
>>>>>>> answer, it's beyond my ability to know, unless such a Creator
>>>>>>> decides to break his silence.
>>>>>> True. It's impossible to know God doesn't exist if in fact he
>>>>>> does not. The
>>>>>> best a person could do if he doesn't exist is to guess that he does
>>>>>> not, and then put all of their faith in their particular guess
>>>>>> happening to be the correct possibility. ALL those who say God
>>>>>> doesn't exist have nothing but their own faith, which the vast
>>>>>> majority of them are amusingly very much ashamed of. Strong atheism
>>>>>> is more faith based than any other religious belief.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To wait for my death, and then punish or reward me,
>>>>>>> depending on whether I believed in him, seems pointless to me. Why
>>>>>>> create living entities, and then torture them for all eternity?
>>>>>>> That is a god I would hope does not exist.
>>>>>> And I as well. Hopefully it's an exageration. I believe there are
>>>>>> a number
>>>>>> of exagerations like omnipotence and omniscience associated with
>>>>>> beliefs about God. Yet again strong atheists can't get as "far" as
>>>>>> that basic starting line either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that's what the mind I was born with has decided. Whether that
>>>>>>> mind was given to me by a god or not, that's the conclusion that it
>>>>>>> has given me,
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