XPost: alt.atheism
From: smiler@jo.king
On Fri, 06 Nov 2015 10:51:03 +1100, felix_unger wrote:
> On 06-November-2015 7:56 AM, Smiler wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:59:57 -0500, mur wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:02:19 +0000 (UTC), Smil continued to wuss:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2015 15:25:22 -0500, mur@. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:18:09 +0000 (UTC), Smil wussed:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:27:17 -0400, mur@. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:52:15 -0700, "Checkmate, DoW #1"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>> chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>>>>> Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What "God"? Until you provide evidence that this god thing
>>>>>>>>>> exists, anything you say about it is pure fantasy. You have to
>>>>>>>>>> give a reason to accept that your god exists and that means
>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you having so much trouble understanding such a simple
>>>>>>>>>> concept?
>>>>>>>>> No, I don't have any trouble understanding you. You are using
>>>>>>>>> the rule
>>>>>>>>> ~Px then P(~x)
>>>>>>>>> where Px means proof of x exists.
>>>>>>>>> ~Px then P(~x) your inference rule ~P(~x) then
>>>>>>>>> P(x)
>>>>>>>>> substitution x ==> ~x and excluded middle
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which means that simultaneously to your statement 'until you
>>>>>>>>> provide evidence that this god thing exists, anything you say
>>>>>>>>> about it is pure fantasy', then according to classic logic you
>>>>>>>>> are also saying 'until I provide evidence of that this god does
>>>>>>>>> not exist, anything I say about what it isn't is pure fantasy'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you really want to be logical? What you claim is logic is
>>>>>>>>> merely your belief that data has only one possible
>>>>>>>>> interpretation as evidence. And further that the interpretation
>>>>>>>>> is only possible when it benefits you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're doing religion, not logic. Real logic would you be
>>>>>>>>> identifying your axiomatic inferences and then deriving theorems
>>>>>>>>> according to some stated logic, usually classic logic with the
>>>>>>>>> excluded middle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As to any notion that your religion is based rationality,
>>>>>>>>> objectivity, or fairness, that is easily belied by your flat out
>>>>>>>>> refusal to accept testimony of Roman historians and populations
>>>>>>>>> of different cultures just because you don't like it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're just another bible thumper. The only the difference is
>>>>>>>>> the title of your bible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By the way the New Testament doesn't obligate christians to
>>>>>>>>> convert nonchristians, nor that christians are punished by their
>>>>>>>>> god for the sins of others. So your demands to have christianity
>>>>>>>>> proven true is only an obligation on yourself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And if you really need a scary religion that demands
>>>>>>>>> nonbelievers to convert or be killed, that would be Islam. But
>>>>>>>>> you don't live where scary moslems live, so as long as it's
>>>>>>>>> others at risk instead of yourself, you can dismiss it as cute,
>>>>>>>>> boutique, ethnic belief.
>>>>>>>> All of the above proves precisely what I, as an agnostic,
>>>>>>>> believe...
>>>>>>>> we just don't know, and we have no way of knowing. The existence
>>>>>>>> of a god cannot be proven or disproven. When I look at the
>>>>>>>> complexity of life and marvel at how well it works, and how it
>>>>>>>> can reproduce itself, I think that there must be a Creator.
>>>>>>> In great contrast to the strong atheists who can't even
>>>>>>> consider the
>>>>>>> possiblity in any realistic ways. Even so, they still believe
>>>>>>> their mental inabilities make the somehow superior. Absurd
>>>>>>> thinking like that make the atheists themselves evidence of God's
>>>>>>> existence by being evidence of Satan (or whatever) having
>>>>>>> influence on weak human minds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I ask this Creator what it's all about... what he wants from
>>>>>>>> us and why we're here, I get no answers,
>>>>>>>> only silence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I wonder at the complexity of the universe, I wonder where
>>>>>>>> it came from, and how miraculous it all is. Why? From where?
>>>>>>>> How? One day it occurred to me that believing in a Creator is no
>>>>>>>> more of a stretch than believing in a Universe, and we know there
>>>>>>>> is a Universe. Could there then be a Creator? Why not? Is he
>>>>>>>> obligated to reveal himself to us or tell us why we're here?
>>>>>>> If he were to give us all proof of his existence then we would
>>>>>>> be more like
>>>>>>> slaves to him, even those who are strong atheists. If he wants us
>>>>>>> to have the freedom of thought we do have--if he wants things to
>>>>>>> be AS THEY ARE--then he can't give us proof of his existence.
>>>>>>> That's one of the basic starting lines atheists can't get as "far"
>>>>>>> as. They can't get as "far" as the fact that if God wants things
>>>>>>> to be as they are, they might very well be as they are. Another
>>>>>>> way that their mental restrictions make them evidence....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. If there is a Creator, we may be nothing more than lab rats
>>>>>>>> to him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that's what I'm left with... As much as I want to know the
>>>>>>>> answer, it's beyond my ability to know, unless such a Creator
>>>>>>>> decides to break his silence.
>>>>>>> True. It's impossible to know God doesn't exist if in fact he
>>>>>>> does not. The
>>>>>>> best a person could do if he doesn't exist is to guess that he
>>>>>>> does not, and then put all of their faith in their particular
>>>>>>> guess happening to be the correct possibility. ALL those who say
>>>>>>> God doesn't exist have nothing but their own faith, which the vast
>>>>>>> majority of them are amusingly very much ashamed of. Strong
>>>>>>> atheism is more faith based than any other religious belief.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To wait for my death, and then punish or reward me,
>>>>>>>> depending on whether I believed in him, seems pointless to me.
>>>>>>>> Why create living entities, and then torture them for all
>>>>>>>> eternity? That is a god I would hope does not exist.
>>>>>>> And I as well. Hopefully it's an exageration. I believe there
>>>>>>> are a number
>>>>>>> of exagerations like omnipotence and omniscience associated with
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