From: user3274@newsgrouper.org.invalid   
      
   mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:   
   > Will Dockery wrote:   
   >> mpsilvertone@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (HarryLime) posted:   
   >>> Will Dockery wrote:   
   >   
   > >> Apple Montage   
   > >>   
   > >> Sneaking around   
   > >> with Cousin Jenny,   
   > >> smoking menthol   
   > >> beyond the sheds.   
   > >>   
   > >> Late summer vacation 1973   
   > >> in the backwoods of Tennessee.   
   > >>   
   > >> To the right   
   > >> behind the barn   
   > >> were apple trees.   
   > >>   
   > >> There were several   
   > >> of those trees   
   > >> and other trees   
   > >> behind them   
   > >> beyond a field   
   > >> and behind them, other trees.   
   > >>   
   > >> Later, I stood near   
   > >> as a crowd   
   > >> watched Pops and my Uncle   
   > >> cooking apple butter;   
   > >> stirring the brown gunk,   
   > >> boiling in a huge black kettle.   
   > >>   
   > >> I saw my father   
   > >> secretly pass   
   > >> a wine bottle   
   > >> to my Uncle Clarence.   
   > >>   
   > >> I went from   
   > >> breathing cold mist   
   > >> out back behind the barn,   
   > >> to breathing   
   > >> the hot misty steam.   
   > >>   
   > >> The air smelled of apple fumes   
   > >> and strong booze.   
   > >>   
   > >> -Will Dockery   
   > >>   
   > >> The poem is an almost perfect poetry montage as it is..   
   > >>   
   > > The term is very easy to understand.   
   > >   
   > > I think you actually know that, Harry.   
   > >   
   > >> See my poem "Apple Montage" for an example of ause of montage in poetry.   
   > >>   
   > >> Wikipedia is a good start on defining "montage":   
   >   
   > > Dockery: Except there's not an entry about montage effects in poetry.   
   > >   
   > > There's no entry on the use of montage in poetry, though.   
   > >   
   > >> "A montage poem layers disparate images, fragments, sounds, and ideas   
   from various sources (like newspaper clippings, songs, slogans) to create a   
   new, complex whole, reflecting fragmented modern life, much like film editing.   
   It juxtaposes these    
   elements without traditional narrative, inviting the reader to find meaning in   
   the connections, contradictions, and rhythms between them, as seen in works   
   like Langston Hughes' Montage of a Dream Deferred."   
   > >   
   > > Apple Montage uses montage effects in several levels.   
   > >   
   > > It's not a surprise you can't accept that, Harry.   
   > >   
   > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montage_(filmmaking)   
   > >>   
   > >> Here is Wikipedia's definition (as per your link):   
   > >>   
   > >> "A montage (/m'nˈt'ː'/ mon-TAHZH) is a film editing technique in which   
   a series of short shots are sequenced to condense space, time, and   
   information. Montages enable filmmakers to communicate a large amount of   
   information to an audience over a    
   shorter span of time by juxtaposing different shots, compressing time through   
   editing, or intertwining multiple storylines of a narrative.   
   > >>   
   > >> "The term has varied meanings depending on the filmmaking tradition. In   
   French, the word montage applied to cinema simply denotes editing. In Soviet   
   montage theory, as originally introduced outside the USSR by Sergei   
   Eisenstein,[1] it was used to    
   create symbolism.[2] Later, the term "montage sequence", used primarily by   
   British and American studios, became the common technique to suggest the   
   passage of time.[3]   
   > >>   
   > >> "From the 1930s to the 1950s, montage sequences often combined numerous   
   short shots with special optical effects (fades/dissolves, split screens,   
   double and triple exposures), dance, and music."   
   >   
   > > Dockery: My poem uses montage effects, again, it's a poem, not s film.   
   > >   
   > > That's film, my montage is in poetic form.   
   > >   
   > >> MMP: Not according to the definition given to you by both myself and   
   Dunce's "trusted source."   
   > >>   
   > >> You poem has a narrative.  Your poem does not juxtapose various   
   images/ideas/sounds/etc. to create a larger, all-encompassing concept.   
   > >>   
   > >> One could also argue that yours is not even in poem form -- it's a pair   
   of two short anecdotes from your past in fiction form.   
   > >>   
   > >> As previously pointed out, my poem uses montage effects in poetry form.   
   > >>   
   > >> Dockery: My poem definitely used montage, this is an argument that is   
   apparently ongoing.   
   > >>   
   > >> MMP: As previously noted, it uses a transitional scene that *could* be   
   considered a "montage sequence" in terms of a montage employed as a cinematic   
   technique to show the passage of time.  But even if it were, it would not make   
   your poem an "montage    
   poem."  Nor would the use of a transitional effect be considered more   
   important than either of the scenes is links -- and certainly not to such an   
   extent that it would become the title.  If that were the case, can you imagine   
   how many old movies would    
   have been named "Train Montage" or "Daily Calendar Page Montage"?   
   > >>   
   > >> Dockery: Interesting that I was watching a television program about Orson   
   Welles just last night, where montage was mentioned.   
   > >>   
   > >> MMP: Interesting that a renowned filmmaker would have used montage   
   effects in his films?  And how does the use of montage in Citizen Kane   
   illuminate your supposed use of montage in your poem?   
   > >>   
   > >> Dockery: Like it or not, my poem does use montage.   
   > >>   
   > >> The entire poem is montage, using montage effects.   
   > >>   
   > >> MMP: Like it or not, your entire poem is formatted as two scenes with a   
   transitional bridge.   
   > >>   
   > >> Again, here is the definition of a montage poem:   
   > >>   
   > >> "A montage poem layers disparate images, fragments, sounds, and ideas   
   from various sources (like newspaper clippings, songs, slogans) to create a   
   new, complex whole, reflecting fragmented modern life, much like film editing.   
   It juxtaposes these    
   elements without traditional narrative, inviting the reader to find meaning in   
   the connections, contradictions, and rhythms between them, as seen in works   
   like Langston Hughes' Montage of a Dream Deferred."   
   > >>   
   > >> Dockery: I've known about montage since the 1970s.   
   > >>   
   > >> MMP: I watched Siskel and Ebert as well.  But I only had a superficial   
   understanding of montage until I read "Film Sense" by Eisenstein.  Did you   
   read Eisenstein in the 1970s?   
   > >>   
   > >> Dockery: I know exactly what a montage is, and knew from the start.   
   > >>   
   > >> MMP: You have a vague, superficial idea of montage -- just as you have a   
   vague, superficial idea of most words.  As an autodidact (which I use   
   charitably), you've interpolated your definition of most words from the   
   context in which you were    
   introduced to them.  The problem with this educational approach is that most   
   words have more than one meaning.   
   > >>   
   > >> Here is how George Dance's "trusted source" describes Eisenstein's theory   
   of montage:   
   > >>   
   > >> "Sergei Eisenstein's theory of montage posits that meaning in film arises   
   not from individual shots but from their collision and juxtaposition, creating   
   a new, synthesized idea in the viewer's mind, much like a dialectical process.   
   He identified    
   five types (metric, rhythmic, tonal, overtonal, and intellectual) to achieve   
   specific emotional or intellectual effects, with intellectual montage being   
   the most significant, using conflicting images (like a bull slaughter and   
   worker massacre) to provoke    
   thought."   
      
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