d5768425   
   XPost: rec.arts.sf.tv, rec.arts.tv   
   From: Obveeus@aol.com   
      
    wrote:   
      
   On 1 Apr, 21:37, "Obveeus"  wrote:   
   >> Why are you assuming that as the limit for the avatar-Zoe when they also   
   >> included a one of a kind 'defective' processor into the mix as well as a   
   >> moment of avatar-Zoe 'feeling' the death of fleshy-Zoe (complete with   
   >> blood)?   
   >   
   >Once again, because of what it's been said to be - indeed what Zoe's   
   >said it is. And because in a discussion of whether or not its copiable   
   >by virtue of being analogue vs. digital, what matters is not what the   
   >source data is, but what the characters making that distinction meant   
   >when they used those terms and what they thought the reasons for   
   >failure were. As far as Zoe's concerned, she is just software based on   
   >'generative algorithms', and that's the explanation she gave Philo.   
      
   So, because avatar-Zoe doesn't understand that she has a soul and/or because   
   avatar-Zoe doesn't understand that her processor is slightly different than   
   the rest you feel you can claim that the show has decided that these things   
   cannot exist and that the show is instead stupid because it is claiming that   
   the whole difference in operation is because the software program is   
   'analog'?  ...and you are going to claim this even though avatar-Zoe has   
   directly commented on the fact that she feels/knows that her software will   
   only work as it does in this particular Cylon body?   
      
   You seem to be going out of your way to assume a lot of things that are not   
   there, just so you can claim the premise is based upon weak writing ot weak   
   understanding of software.   
      
   >And for all the mysticism in the BSG universe's religions, we have yet   
   >to be shown anything fully metaphysical or provided with evidence of   
   >metaphysical intervention beyond certain implications about the nature   
   >of God.   
      
   >Cylon 'souls', so far as has been established, are just those   
   >streams of data that are downloaded into new bodies when they die.   
   >Invoking a soul adding unique life essence to the avatar is something   
   >for which we have no basis.   
      
   Really?  I sort of thought of avatar-Baltar and avatar-Six (the illusions of   
   their human/cylon counterparts) at the end of the reimagined BSG as 'proof'   
   that there was some sort of 'God' thing going on on some level with this   
   series.   
      
   >> >> Or, if you want to discount 'God' as being a factor in any of this,   
   >> >> you   
   >> >> are   
   >> >> still entirely discounting any/all time that avatar-Zoe spent   
   >> >> learning/changing through her experiences with fleshy-Zoe.   
   >> >Different issue. That's what gives the Zoe avatar a distinct   
   >> >personality; it's not what gives the avatar the ability to function.   
   >>   
   >> So what database is being used by the attempted 'copy' versions? Daniel   
   >> graystone certainly hasn't told anyone at his lab that his daughter's   
   >> database was inserted into the only working model.   
      
   >A database is just input - the avatar must also contain the generic   
   >software for extracting that information into an intelligent avatar   
   >capable of learning.   
      
   ...and yet you seem to think that the database (or the absense of the   
   database) won't effect the operation of the program.  That would be as   
   logical as opening up an empty spreadsheet and expecting that it should be   
   able to tell you the balance in your checkbook, because the programming can   
   compute a balance.   
      
   > That's the equivalent of the neural net, and the   
   >function to be copied. The unique inputs are just the things the   
   >avatar's learned since activation - by analogy with the later Cylons,   
   >the basic Boomer template can be copied, but different Boomers develop   
   >different personalities. There's no clear reason why the basic Zoe   
   >avatar can't form a template in the same way, with each subsequent Zoe   
   >then developing based on her individual experiences.   
      
   Nothing has suggested that the Graystone Cylons have any database.  You are   
   assuming that all of the basic 'data' in the Zoe database is being copied   
   into each Cylon rather than that *only* the program is being copied into the   
   Graystone Cylons.   
      
      
   > Clearly the   
   >software to create new avatars is accessible - Daniel used it to   
   >create Tamara's based on what he learned from capturing Zoe's avatar,   
   >effectively 'reverse-engineering' her.   
      
   avatar-Zoe was programmed with extensive data from fleshy-Zoe.  Tamara was   
   programmed only with internet data.  The Cylons are given the program, but   
   no data (at least none that has been defined so far), so their algorythm is   
   starting from scratch.  if you set a one day old baby out in the middle of   
   the room and told it to defend itself, how well would it do?   
      
   >>Perhaps, no database at   
   >> all is even being used and the tech-geeks are simply thinking that the   
   >> program in and of itself will work?   
   >   
   >> >Graystone's does (at least in one robot).   
      
   What robot is that?  The only robot that wiorrks has the Zoe database in it.   
      
   >> Really? I thought that the avatar-Zoe was using the chip stolen from   
   >> Vergis, not a chip made afterwards by Graystone from the stolen plans.   
      
   >It is the same chip   
      
   No, it isn't.  It wasn't even built by the same company.  You are just   
   assuming that Graystone was able to replicate the design perfectly.  You are   
   even assuming that the chip in the avatar-Zoe setup is built to those design   
   specs, but in reality chips are made all the time that don't match design   
   specs.  For all we know, Vergis was never able to make a chip that matched   
   the 'designs' he had.   
      
   >- but to an outsider, one is a working chip while   
   >the other is not, and since the former started working within days of   
   >the theft of the latter (so without sufficient time to fix problems   
   >that had Vergis stumped), it would seem highly unlikely they're the   
   >same.   
      
   Indeed...and if the chips aren't the same, there is no reason to expect the   
   cylon copies to act like the avatar-Zoe cylon.   
      
   >> >Why   
   >> >does he never bring that up when challenged as 'evidence' that he is   
   >> >therefore not using stolen technology?   
   >>   
   >> I don't think that Vergis admitted to anyone other than Daniel (certainly   
   >> not to the government) that his chip didn't work. What we had as a   
   >> premise   
   >> was two companies competing for a government contract and neither company   
   >> actually being able to meet the specifications even though both companies   
   >> were peddling the idea that they could.   
      
   >Good point, but the miltary's source of info on the theft has to be   
   >Vergis himself - all Daniel needed to do in the first place when faced   
   >with Vergis' allegation was to show Vergis that he had a working chip   
   >and Vergis would seem to have little choice but to drop the matter,   
   >possibly before the army got wind of it.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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