[continued from previous message]   
      
   > Nothing has suggested that the Graystone Cylons have any database.  You are   
   > assuming that all of the basic 'data' in the Zoe database is being copied   
   > into each Cylon rather than that *only* the program is being copied into the   
   > Graystone Cylons.   
      
   Again, I'm working from the characters' perspective here. You may be   
   right that specific data is required to activate the software and that   
   that data has to be programmed in separately - for instance, Daniel   
   needed to actively use the Zoe avatar template in combination with   
   data on Tamara Adama to create the Tamara avatar. But this is   
   tangential to the point we're discussing - if someone tells you their   
   car doesn't work because it's blue, and it later transpires that it   
   doesn't work because of an engine fault, the first statement doesn't   
   become any more logical simply because it happens to describe the same   
   outcome (i.e. a car not working) as the correct explanation.   
      
   So, we're free to assume that the actual stumbling block is a data   
   entry problem rather than anything uncopiable in the algorithms being   
   used - regardless, the explanation the characters have settled on is   
   illogical. It's just illogical and wrong rather than, as the show   
   seems to want us to believe at this stage, illogical and right.   
      
   > > Clearly the   
   > >software to create new avatars is accessible - Daniel used it to   
   > >create Tamara's based on what he learned from capturing Zoe's avatar,   
   > >effectively 'reverse-engineering' her.   
   >   
   > avatar-Zoe was programmed with extensive data from fleshy-Zoe.  Tamara was   
   > programmed only with internet data.  The Cylons are given the program, but   
   > no data (at least none that has been defined so far), so their algorythm is   
   > starting from scratch.  if you set a one day old baby out in the middle of   
   > the room and told it to defend itself, how well would it do?   
      
   Except that as far as we can gather, they aren't gven the program at   
   all, because it's *uncopiable*. The Cylons have their own neural net   
   (Zoe mentions that the robot is able to learn things on its own,   
   without her input - such as how to strip down a gun). The avatar   
   program is superimposed on this particular Centurion; the other Cylons   
   don't have an avatar-generating program minus data. If they did there   
   would seem to be no issue - but it's been specified that it's the   
   *algorithm*, not the database, that's uncopiable by virtue of being   
   'analogue'.   
      
   > >>Perhaps, no database at   
   > >> all is even being used and the tech-geeks are simply thinking that the   
   > >> program in and of itself will work?   
   >   
   > >> >Graystone's does (at least in one robot).   
   >   
   > What robot is that?  The only robot that wiorrks has the Zoe database in it.   
      
   Exactly - that's one robot.   
      
   > >> Really? I thought that the avatar-Zoe was using the chip stolen from   
   > >> Vergis, not a chip made afterwards by Graystone from the stolen plans.   
   > >It is the same chip   
   >   
   > No, it isn't.  It wasn't even built by the same company.  You are just   
   > assuming that Graystone was able to replicate the design perfectly.   
      
   ? Graystone hasn't replicated anything in this context - he stole one   
   specific chip and implanted that specific chip into the robot. This is   
   the one that didn't work for Vergis but which now works for Daniel.   
      
    You are   
   > even assuming that the chip in the avatar-Zoe setup is built to those design   
   > specs, but in reality chips are made all the time that don't match design   
   > specs.   
      
   Daniel stole a piece of hardware, not design specs - hence the need to   
   'reverse-engineer' it alluded to by the army commander.   
      
    For all we know, Vergis was never able to make a chip that matched   
   > the 'designs' he had.   
      
   Irrelevant. Vergis built a chip - Daniel has that particular chip.   
      
   > >- but to an outsider, one is a working chip while   
   > >the other is not, and since the former started working within days of   
   > >the theft of the latter (so without sufficient time to fix problems   
   > >that had Vergis stumped), it would seem highly unlikely they're the   
   > >same.   
   >   
   > Indeed...and if the chips aren't the same, there is no reason to expect the   
   > cylon copies to act like the avatar-Zoe cylon.   
      
   We're onto a different issue here. Here I'm talking about the way that   
   everyone assumes the chip is the same when, from the characters'   
   perspective, there isn't any good reason to do so. This is another   
   case of clumsy writing that assumes that, since the audience knows   
   something (that the two chips are one and the same), it should be easy   
   enough for the characters to work out too.   
      
   We have, on the one hand, Graystone Industries, a company that has   
   been trying to develop a functioning MCP for ten years and that, to   
   outside eyes, appears to have finally cracked the problem - or at   
   least made a significant advance towards doing so.   
      
   On the other hand, we have the Vergis Corporation, a company that   
   never succeeded in manufacturing a working chip and whose only,   
   nonfunctioning, prototype was stolen two days before Graystone   
   Industries developed a working robot.   
      
   On the face of it, all that gives us is a coincidence of timing (and   
   the fact that in each case, only one example of either chip or working   
   robot existed, but you'd expect that to be par for the course for a   
   prototype). Everyone's convicting Daniel, and he's effectively going   
   along with it by being wholly unconvincing in his denials, on the   
   basis of what he's bound to know would never stand up in court as more   
   than circumstantial evidence. The fact that the audience knows Vergis   
   is right doesn't mean Vergis ought to know that.   
      
   > >> I don't think that Vergis admitted to anyone other than Daniel (certainly   
   > >> not to the government) that his chip didn't work. What we had as a   
   > >> premise   
   > >> was two companies competing for a government contract and neither company   
   > >> actually being able to meet the specifications even though both companies   
   > >> were peddling the idea that they could.   
   > >Good point, but the miltary's source of info on the theft has to be   
   > >Vergis himself - all Daniel needed to do in the first place when faced   
   > >with Vergis' allegation was to show Vergis that he had a working chip   
   > >and Vergis would seem to have little choice but to drop the matter,   
   > >possibly before the army got wind of it.   
   >   
   > The military knew that Graystone didn't have a working anything, then   
   > suddenly he did.   
      
   After, from what he told Cyrus in the pilot, ten years of trying. And   
   even then he only had a halfway house - a single working model that   
   was proving difficult to replicate. This is not suspiciously fast   
   progress.   
      
     His proving that one Cylon worked has already been done.   
   > Him showing them his own chip (which does not work in a Cylon) isn't going   
   > to dispell any rumors that he stole the thing that does work.   
      
   Rumours, undoubtedly not. But the characters are presenting it as hard   
   evidence, which it is anything but - Daniel didn't stand up to the   
   army commander's accusation at all.   
      
   Phil   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)