865731c2   
   XPost: rec.arts.sf.tv, rec.arts.tv   
   From: Obveeus@aol.com   
      
    wrote:   
      
   On 2 Apr, 00:55, "Obveeus"  wrote:   
   >>  ...and you are going to claim this even though avatar-Zoe has   
   >> directly commented on the fact that she feels/knows that her software   
   >> will   
   >> only work as it does in this particular Cylon body?   
   >   
   >See above. I'm looking at the issue from the perspective of the   
   >characters using these terms. Zoe never told Philo that she was   
   >reliant on a robot body - all she told him was that her system worked   
   >through a 'generative algorithm', from which he made the inference   
   >about analogue vs. digital.   
      
   Zoe has directly said that she is only working because of this particular   
   combination of Cylon body and her programming.  Zoe even directly stated   
   that she doesn't fully7 understand how this special 'working' situation has   
   occurred.   
      
   Zoe's comments about a generative algorithm speak to her suggestions about   
   how to get the Cylons to 'learn'.  I take 'let them out of the lab' to be   
   similar to what I have been saying about the Graystone techs not giving   
   these copied robots a database of knowledge to work with.  The program is   
   running, but the Cylon copies are not being given useful imput....asking   
   them to move their arm or step forward is not sufficient input for them to   
   learn to defend themselves or to understand which real world elements are   
   even threats.   
      
   >> You seem to be going out of your way to assume a lot of things that are   
   >> not   
   >> there, just so you can claim the premise is based upon weak writing ot   
   >> weak   
   >> understanding of software.   
   >   
   >I need make no assumptions beyond what's stated in the show: digital =   
   >copiable, analogue = non-copiable. I have no need to assume that Philo   
   >was using a different meaning of 'analogue' from that conventionally   
   >used in opposition to 'digital',   
      
   You are assuming that he thinks analog means 4-20mA style signal, becasue   
   you assume that is what it meant.  He actually meant something more basic:   
   the program is more than just ones and zeros...and yes, despite your   
   protests, a database is part of a program when that program is   
   self-learning.   
      
   > and I don't need to make your strange   
   >assumption that the copying process actually doesn't work for an   
   >entirely different reason (there's a soul in there) that just   
   >coincidentally happens to have the same effect as what Philo thinks of   
   >as an analogue/digital issue.   
      
   Setting aside the very real issue of a soul in this show (demostrated with   
   awareness of the moment fleshy-Zoe died and with a heavy splattering of   
   blood onto avatar-Zoe), you still need to keep in mind that the avatar-Zoe   
   chip IS NOT the same as the rest of the chips.  the rest opf the Cylon chips   
   were made by Graystone whereas avatar-Zoe's chip was not.   
      
   >> >And for all the mysticism in the BSG universe's religions, we have yet   
   >> >to be shown anything fully metaphysical or provided with evidence of   
   >> >metaphysical intervention beyond certain implications about the nature   
   >> >of God.   
   >> >Cylon 'souls', so far as has been established, are just those   
   >> >streams of data that are downloaded into new bodies when they die.   
   >> >Invoking a soul adding unique life essence to the avatar is something   
   >> >for which we have no basis.   
   >>   
   >> Really? I sort of thought of avatar-Baltar and avatar-Six (the illusions   
   >> of   
   >> their human/cylon counterparts) at the end of the reimagined BSG as   
   >> 'proof'   
   >> that there was some sort of 'God' thing going on on some level with this   
   >> series.   
   >   
   >Those were among the "certain implications about the nature of God".   
   >It still doesn't follow that therefore anything mystical goes.   
      
   So, you fully acknowledge that these shows use 'mystical elements', yet you   
   still want to proclaim that the existence of avatar-Zoe isn't allowed to be   
   one of those elements?   
      
   >> >> So what database is being used by the attempted 'copy' versions?   
   >> >> Daniel   
   >> >> graystone certainly hasn't told anyone at his lab that his daughter's   
   >> >> database was inserted into the only working model.   
   >> >A database is just input - the avatar must also contain the generic   
   >> >software for extracting that information into an intelligent avatar   
   >> >capable of learning.   
   >>   
   >> ...and yet you seem to think that the database (or the absense of the   
   >> database) won't effect the operation of the program. That would be as   
   >> logical as opening up an empty spreadsheet and expecting that it should   
   >> be   
   >> able to tell you the balance in your checkbook, because the programming   
   >> can   
   >> compute a balance.   
   >   
   >No, you're misunderstanding. The balance in your checkbook is   
   >something specific - as is, say, Zoe.   
      
   No, you misunderstand.  Zoe is a database of knowledge, similar to all the   
   entries in the checkbook.  Without those entries, you have absolutely   
   nothing to use to reach a balance for the checkbook.  In the same way,   
   without the Zoe database included with the program, the program has no way   
   to reach conclusions quickly/accurately/etc...  The program is self learning   
   and the Zoe database is an important part of that program.   
      
   > As I've said, I'm not arguing   
   >that the Zoe avatar itself can be copied - I'm arguing that the   
   >generic process that generates it (i.e. the ability to compute a   
   >balance) can be copied.   
      
   Nothing in this show has suggested that the program (ability to process)   
   part has not been copied to the Graystone Cylons.  Just having the program   
   is not enough.  The program has to have a database of knowledge to function   
   well.   
      
   >The end result will be a different avatar -   
   >maybe one that looks like Zoe (as Boomers look like Boomer), or maybe   
   >something like Tamara - the result of the same program applied to a   
   >different database. The issue I have with the storytelling is in   
   >supposing that because (as we assume) Zoe can't be copied exactly,   
   >therefore the program can't be copied - that's logically equivalent to   
   >arguing that if you don't have the information in the spreadsheet to   
   >compute your own balance, it can't compule any balances at all.   
      
   The copied versions of the programs (the ones in the Graystone Cylons that   
   do not perform well in tests) have not been shown to have been given any   
   meaningful database, have they?  Since you have not seen any input database   
   of significance being given to 'fill these copies with knowledge', why do   
   you assume that they should act intelligent as oposed to acting 'empty'?   
      
   >> Nothing has suggested that the Graystone Cylons have any database. You   
   >> are   
   >> assuming that all of the basic 'data' in the Zoe database is being copied   
   >> into each Cylon rather than that *only* the program is being copied into   
   >> the   
   >> Graystone Cylons.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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