[continued from previous message]   
      
   >Again, I'm working from the characters' perspective here. You may be   
   >right that specific data is required to activate the software and that   
   >that data has to be programmed in separately - for instance, Daniel   
   >needed to actively use the Zoe avatar template in combination with   
   >data on Tamara Adama to create the Tamara avatar. But this is   
   >tangential to the point we're discussing -   
      
   No it isn't.  None of the Graystone Cylons have been shown to be getting a   
   database of 'human elements' at all.  avatar-Tamara was given the database   
   of collected knowledge about the real human (a database of knowledge from   
   the internet).  Avatar-Zoe was given something similar, PLUS a bunch of   
   additional interaction and fine tuning from the actual human fleshy-Zoe.   
   the Graystone Cylon copies have the program, but have not been show to get   
   an database input.  instead, we are shown that the techs ask the robots to   
   move and arm or step forward.  the techs are treating the Cylon like a   
   simple robot...and have not given them any 'fuzzy-logic' style input (a   
   database of 'real world' experiences0.   
      
      
   >> avatar-Zoe was programmed with extensive data from fleshy-Zoe. Tamara was   
   >> programmed only with internet data. The Cylons are given the program, but   
   >> no data (at least none that has been defined so far), so their algorythm   
   >> is   
   >> starting from scratch. if you set a one day old baby out in the middle of   
   >> the room and told it to defend itself, how well would it do?   
      
   >Except that as far as we can gather, they aren't gven the program at   
   >all, because it's *uncopiable*. The Cylons have their own neural net   
   >(Zoe mentions that the robot is able to learn things on its own,   
   >without her input - such as how to strip down a gun).   
      
   That part of the Cylon learning is the action of the program, not the use of   
   it by the program running the database.   
      
   >> >>Perhaps, no database at   
   >> >> all is even being used and the tech-geeks are simply thinking that the   
   >> >> program in and of itself will work?   
   >>   
   >> >> >Graystone's does (at least in one robot).   
   >>   
   >> What robot is that? The only robot that wiorrks has the Zoe database in   
   >> it.   
   >   
   >Exactly - that's one robot.   
      
   Ah...the robot with the unique chip (the only chip not made by Graystone)   
   and the unique database (the only robot with avatar-Zoe's wealth of   
   knowledge/opinion/etc...)   
      
   >> >> Really? I thought that the avatar-Zoe was using the chip stolen from   
   >> >> Vergis, not a chip made afterwards by Graystone from the stolen plans.   
   >> >It is the same chip   
   >>   
   >> No, it isn't. It wasn't even built by the same company. You are just   
   >> assuming that Graystone was able to replicate the design perfectly.   
   >   
   >? Graystone hasn't replicated anything in this context - he stole one   
   >specific chip and implanted that specific chip into the robot. This is   
   >the one that didn't work for Vergis but which now works for Daniel.   
      
   What chip do you think is running all of the other Cylons...the ones that   
   don't perform well in tests?  None of those Cylons are not running off of   
   the one chip that was stolen from Vergis.   
      
   >You are   
   >> even assuming that the chip in the avatar-Zoe setup is built to those   
   >> design   
   >> specs, but in reality chips are made all the time that don't match design   
   >> specs.   
   >   
   >Daniel stole a piece of hardware, not design specs - hence the need to   
   >'reverse-engineer' it alluded to by the army commander.   
      
   If no reverse engineering has yet been done on this chip's hardware, then   
   why are you complaining at all about other working Cylons not existing so   
   far?  Why are you even claiming that the software can't be copied into other   
   bits of hardware if you are also claiming that no other bits of hardware   
   exist?   
      
   >>For all we know, Vergis was never able to make a chip that matched   
   >> the 'designs' he had.   
      
   >Irrelevant. Vergis built a chip - Daniel has that particular chip.   
      
   Are you claiming that that one chip isn't the one that avatar-Zoe is using?   
      
   >> >- but to an outsider, one is a working chip while   
   >> >the other is not, and since the former started working within days of   
   >> >the theft of the latter (so without sufficient time to fix problems   
   >> >that had Vergis stumped), it would seem highly unlikely they're the   
   >> >same.   
   >>   
   >> Indeed...and if the chips aren't the same, there is no reason to expect   
   >> the   
   >> cylon copies to act like the avatar-Zoe cylon.   
   >   
   >We're onto a different issue here. Here I'm talking about the way that   
   >everyone assumes the chip is the same when, from the characters'   
   >perspective, there isn't any good reason to do so.   
      
   I am completely confused about what you are saying.  A moment ago you seemed   
   to be claiming that only one chip exists at all, now you are claiming again   
   that there are graystone versions of the chip.  Which is it?   
      
   > This is another   
   >case of clumsy writing that assumes that, since the audience knows   
   >something (that the two chips are one and the same), it should be easy   
   >enough for the characters to work out too.   
      
   Whip two chip are you claiming 'are one in the same'?  A moment ago you   
   claimed the chips were different...and a moment before that you claimed that   
   only one chip even exists.   
      
   >We have, on the one hand, Graystone Industries, a company that has   
   >been trying to develop a functioning MCP for ten years and that, to   
   >outside eyes, appears to have finally cracked the problem - or at   
   >least made a significant advance towards doing so.   
      
   Ok, I agree so far.   
      
   >On the other hand, we have the Vergis Corporation, a company that   
   >never succeeded in manufacturing a working chip and whose only,   
   >nonfunctioning, prototype was stolen two days before Graystone   
   >Industries developed a working robot.   
      
   No one other than Vergis insiders know that their chip 'did not work'...and   
   the reality is only that Vergis believed that the chip did not work because   
   he could not get it to work with whatever software he was running.   
      
   >On the face of it, all that gives us is a coincidence of timing (and   
   >the fact that in each case, only one example of either chip or working   
   >robot existed, but you'd expect that to be par for the course for a   
   >prototype). Everyone's convicting Daniel, and he's effectively going   
   >along with it by being wholly unconvincing in his denials, on the   
   >basis of what he's bound to know would never stand up in court as more   
   >than circumstantial evidence. The fact that the audience knows Vergis   
   >is right doesn't mean Vergis ought to know that.   
      
   Not sure what you are saying here or why it has any relevance to whether or   
   not avatar-Zoe could exist or whether or not avatar-Zoe should or should not   
   be copyable.  Who cares if Graystone stole the chip and everyone knows it?   
   Why do you believe that Vergis's claim that the chip did not work means that   
   it actually did not work rather than that he simply was unable to get it to   
   work?   
      
   The reality of the show seems to be that no one other than fleshy-Zoe wrote   
   a 'generative program' that was capable of learning rather than simply being   
   'digital' in nature.   
      
   >>  His proving that one Cylon worked has already been done.   
   >> Him showing them his own chip (which does not work in a Cylon) isn't   
   >> going   
   >> to dispell any rumors that he stole the thing that does work.   
   >   
   >Rumours, undoubtedly not. But the characters are presenting it as hard   
   >evidence, which it is anything but - Daniel didn't stand up to the   
   >army commander's accusation at all.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)