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   be the default assumption. It's unclear what, if any, symbolism the   
   'moment of death' thing is intended to have, but Zoe's avatar existed   
   before the explosion and exists after it, without any obvious change   
   in who the character is (based on the admittedly little we saw of her   
   pre-explosion) and no change in her knowledge - no 'soul' appears to   
   have transmitted anything substantial to the avatar.   
      
   > >> >> So what database is being used by the attempted 'copy' versions?   
   > >> >> Daniel   
   > >> >> graystone certainly hasn't told anyone at his lab that his daughter's   
   > >> >> database was inserted into the only working model.   
   > >> >A database is just input - the avatar must also contain the generic   
   > >> >software for extracting that information into an intelligent avatar   
   > >> >capable of learning.   
   >   
   > >> ...and yet you seem to think that the database (or the absense of the   
   > >> database) won't effect the operation of the program. That would be as   
   > >> logical as opening up an empty spreadsheet and expecting that it should   
   > >> be   
   > >> able to tell you the balance in your checkbook, because the programming   
   > >> can   
   > >> compute a balance.   
   >   
   > >No, you're misunderstanding. The balance in your checkbook is   
   > >something specific - as is, say, Zoe.   
   >   
   > No, you misunderstand.  Zoe is a database of knowledge, similar to all the   
   > entries in the checkbook.  Without those entries, you have absolutely   
   > nothing to use to reach a balance for the checkbook.   
      
   Precisely. And yet the spreadsheet contains the functions that will   
   allow you to perform calculations on any entries you add.   
      
    In the same way,   
   > without the Zoe database included with the program, the program has no way   
   > to reach conclusions quickly/accurately/etc...  The program is self learning   
   > and the Zoe database is an important part of that program.   
      
   That's not the issue at hand, however - the issue is that the program   
   itself cannot be copied. Again, like suggesting that you can't copy   
   Excel to another computer without also copying your chequebook.   
      
   > > As I've said, I'm not arguing   
   > >that the Zoe avatar itself can be copied - I'm arguing that the   
   > >generic process that generates it (i.e. the ability to compute a   
   > >balance) can be copied.   
   >   
   > Nothing in this show has suggested that the program (ability to process)   
   > part has not been copied to the Graystone Cylons.   
      
   The show has told us specifically that the MCP has not been copied.   
   The robot has its own programming - the stuff that allows it to learn   
   how to strip a gun etc. that Zoe describes as something "the robot   
   already knows". The programming that generates Zoe is something   
   entirely different, something Daniel's daughter created and that he   
   hasn't been able to replicate. And Zoe has said specifically that it's   
   the algorithm that presents difficulty in copying it, not the data   
   itself.   
      
     Just having the program   
   > is not enough.  The program has to have a database of knowledge to function   
   > well.   
      
   As true as that may be, the other Cylons don't even have the program   
   yet.   
      
   > >The end result will be a different avatar -   
   > >maybe one that looks like Zoe (as Boomers look like Boomer), or maybe   
   > >something like Tamara - the result of the same program applied to a   
   > >different database. The issue I have with the storytelling is in   
   > >supposing that because (as we assume) Zoe can't be copied exactly,   
   > >therefore the program can't be copied - that's logically equivalent to   
   > >arguing that if you don't have the information in the spreadsheet to   
   > >compute your own balance, it can't compule any balances at all.   
   >   
   > The copied versions of the programs (the ones in the Graystone Cylons that   
   > do not perform well in tests) have not been shown to have been given any   
   > meaningful database, have they?  Since you have not seen any input database   
   > of significance being given to 'fill these copies with knowledge', why do   
   > you assume that they should act intelligent as oposed to acting 'empty'?   
      
   There are no copied versions of the programs. The Cylons that   
   underperformed in tests used software Daniel created completely   
   unaware that his daughter had a knack for designing artificial   
   intelligence - they have something entirely separate from the   
   uncopiable program, which is why Zoe can separate out what she   
   (avatar) knows from what the robot she's in knows. Whether they can be   
   trained up or not is an academic point - for story purposes we're told   
   they require MCPs with the attendant abilities Zoe brings to her   
   robot. The objection is solely with the premise that this program is   
   uncopiable *by virtue of being analogue*, not that it's a plot hole   
   that other efforts haven't been tried to increase the effectiveness of   
   the non-MCP Cylons.   
      
   > >> >> Really? I thought that the avatar-Zoe was using the chip stolen from   
   > >> >> Vergis, not a chip made afterwards by Graystone from the stolen plans.   
   > >> >It is the same chip   
   >   
   > >> No, it isn't. It wasn't even built by the same company. You are just   
   > >> assuming that Graystone was able to replicate the design perfectly.   
   >   
   > >? Graystone hasn't replicated anything in this context - he stole one   
   > >specific chip and implanted that specific chip into the robot. This is   
   > >the one that didn't work for Vergis but which now works for Daniel.   
   >   
   > What chip do you think is running all of the other Cylons...the ones that   
   > don't perform well in tests?  None of those Cylons are not running off of   
   > the one chip that was stolen from Vergis.   
      
   Last we heard, they were running off non-MCP chips of the sort he was   
   using before he stole Vergis' chip. We've also been told the MCP chip   
   hasn't worked in them. They have nothing at all derived from anything   
   in the Vergis chip or its contents, so far as we can tell.   
      
   > >You are   
   > >> even assuming that the chip in the avatar-Zoe setup is built to those   
   > >> design   
   > >> specs, but in reality chips are made all the time that don't match design   
   > >> specs.   
   >   
   > >Daniel stole a piece of hardware, not design specs - hence the need to   
   > >'reverse-engineer' it alluded to by the army commander.   
   >   
   > If no reverse engineering has yet been done on this chip's hardware, then   
   > why are you complaining at all about other working Cylons not existing so   
   > far?   
      
   I'm not complaining about the absence of other working Cylons - I'm   
   complaining about the particular plot device used to explain *why*   
   there aren't any other working Cylons.   
      
     Why are you even claiming that the software can't be copied into   
   other   
   > bits of hardware if you are also claiming that no other bits of hardware   
   > exist?   
      
   As it's been described, the MCP is being treated as a single unit -   
   the hardware and software together. If one bit can't be copied, the   
   whole thing can't. After all, no one other than Zoe knows that the   
   avatar program is in there (for sure) - they appear to be treating the   
   program as though it is a property of the configuration of the   
   hardware itself.   
      
   > >> >- but to an outsider, one is a working chip while   
   > >> >the other is not, and since the former started working within days of   
   > >> >the theft of the latter (so without sufficient time to fix problems   
   > >> >that had Vergis stumped), it would seem highly unlikely they're the   
   > >> >same.   
   >   
   > >> Indeed...and if the chips aren't the same, there is no reason to expect   
   > >> the   
   > >> cylon copies to act like the avatar-Zoe cylon.   
   >   
   > >We're onto a different issue here. Here I'm talking about the way that   
      
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