[continued from previous message]   
      
   > > > Hunter-gatherers would probably be illiterate but not stupid. However   
   > > > I don't know of anyone that would claim literate and intelligent   
   > > > civilizations couldn't exist in the Americas 2500 years ago. I mean   
   > > > that civilization lasted to almost the beginning of the well-known   
   > > > Maya civilization which developed in the jungles of Central America.   
   > >   
   > > Hunter gatherers, splorf. There always has been and forever will be.   
   >   
   > What does that have to do with ancient civilizations?   
      
   You were the one who brought it up, as if there was a reason for it. You   
   started off you paragraph referring to them.   
   >   
   >   
   > > > > > > > > The reason that stood out to be was because the evolutionary   
   > > > > > > > > scientists   
   > > > > > > > > who   
   > > > > > > > > tried to say that somehow the human foot prints were man made   
   seemed   
   > > > > > > > > absurd   
   > > > > > > > > to me, it was like they were grasping at straws to disprove it   
   because   
   > > > > > > > > it   
   > > > > > > > > stood out so bad in a manner that contradicted the current   
   thinking of   
   > > > > > > > > evolution.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > I find it interesting that these YECs have gone *back* to Paluxy,   
   > > > > > > > despite its history of fraudulent "human footprints."   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > That has nothing to do with what is on the table of topics for this   
   > > > > > > discussion. Which I prefer to stick to at this time.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > Yes, let's just agree that human footprints with dinosaur footprints   
   > > > > > have been debunked, and move on.   
   > > > >   
   > > > > Sorry, but I have seen the evidences so I cannot agree with you.   
   > > >   
   > > > So I'll just assume you were wrong, and we can move on.   
   > >   
   > > That has been you presumptive assumptions from the beginning. It has been   
   > > your ongoing perception about me in all areas of these discussions, it is   
   > > time to bring it to a halt as it is just wasting both our time.   
   >   
   > So bring it to a halt. It's no skin off my nose.   
      
   Of course not.You had none to give.   
      
   >   
   >   
   > > > > > > > > Of course when they dug up their own sites and discovered the   
   same   
   > > > > > > > > things   
   > > > > > > > > they were blown away, and I remember a couple of them saying   
   that this   
   > > > > > > > > find   
   > > > > > > > > means that they have to completely changed their order of   
   things or   
   > > > > > > > > that   
   > > > > > > > > this just destroyed in so completely that no longer could they   
   accept   
   > > > > > > > > the   
   > > > > > > > > theory.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Pure fabrication.   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > Typical subjective reasoning for agenda focused people.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > Cite the scientists who you claim acted this way.   
   > > > >   
   > > > > I would if I still had the documentation. Which BTW I might have on   
   one of   
   > > > > my old hard disks that I have stored away.   
   > > >   
   > > > Yeah, why don't you post those when you're "able to find them."   
   > >   
   > > Oh I am able to all right, I just need the motivation and then allocate the   
   > > time to do it.   
   >   
   > So post them as soon as your "motivation" comes in to rescue them for   
   > you.   
   >   
   > > > > > > > > HOWEVER! LOL, there was a large group of them who then came up   
   with   
   > > > > > > > > the   
   > > > > > > > > idea that whoever created the original footprints MUST have   
   created   
   > > > > > > > > those as   
   > > > > > > > > well and then recovered the land, bushes and trees to make it   
   all look   
   > > > > > > > > Natural. And they literally believed what they said, at least   
   > > > > > > > > outwardly.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > They moved the trees and shrubs around? Where did you get that   
   from?   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > That is what the naysayers suggested and claimed.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > What naysayers?   
   > > > >   
   > > > > The very scientists that you requested the cites of.   
   > > >   
   > > > What were the names of these scientists?   
   > >   
   > > We already discussed that.   
   >   
   > No, we discussed people that have supposedly had OBEs -- I was asking   
   > you for the names involved, which is similar to what I'm requesting   
   > here but is clearly different.   
      
   Ok so your memory comes and goes. That is too bad. You have my sympathies.   
   >   
   >   
   > > > > > > > > Their argument basis of thought reminded me of the typical low   
   level   
   > > > > > > > > atheists   
   > > > > > > > > arguments as the same reasoning skills or lack thereof was in   
   full   
   > > > > > > > > effect.   
   > > > > > > > > And those people were educated, some very highly.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > No, atheist arguments are not low-level, the way theist   
   arguments are.   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > Really? Look at your comment just above, the reasoning of it and   
   the   
   > > > > > > knee   
   > > > > > > jerk reaction.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?   
   > > > >   
   > > > > Oh brother......   
   > > >   
   > > > What do you mean by that?   
   > > >   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > > While it sounded unreasonable to you, and you recognized that, it   
   was   
   > > > > > > still   
   > > > > > > their reasoning and thinking, and the cause for them to excuse away   
   > > > > > > something that did not support their agendized thinking and   
   arguments.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > Are you claiming that you have no agenda?   
   > > > >   
   > > > > Yes.   
   > > >   
   > > > So you're not here in alt.atheism to win souls for Christ?   
   > >   
   > > Nope, I just posted this thread there for you all to see the possibilities.   
   >   
   > And what did you think would happen when the "possibilities" were   
   > "seen"?   
      
   Some would see it, others wouldn’t and those who did could start off in   
   their own research once they saw the possibilites.   
   >   
   >   
   > > Some plant, some water, but it is God that gives the increase.   
   >   
   > Could that planting and watering be the proselytizing you deny you're   
   > attempting here in alt.atheism?   
      
   Seed only takes root on fallowed ground. Watering one helps the roots grow   
   strong. Only God gives the increase. Not my responsibility. So far, I have   
   seen little to no evidence of any seed taking root. There is much thorny   
   weeds here that would seek to destroy and chock off seeds thing root.   
      
   So just why are you proselytizing in alt.bible?   
      
   >   
   >   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > > *he sometimes refers to a time when he was dead and   
   > > > > > > > sometimes refers   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > > to a situation where he was teetering between life   
   and death;   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > > which   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > > is   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > > it?   
   > > > > > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > Both. His OOBE and the realities of being in a   
   spiritual state he   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > assumed he was back on earth as he saw things clearly.   
   Had he been   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > back   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > in   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > his body he would have felt the consciousness that his   
   body was   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > aware   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > of.   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, the Apostle, could not tell when he visited   
   heaven whether   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > he   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > was   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > in   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > the body or out of it. He had been stoned to death at   
   least once,   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > and   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > as I   
   > > > > > > > > > > > > recalled he was killed something like three different   
   times.   
   > > > > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > > > But these days he says he *was* dead, not that he was at   
   that time   
   > > > > > > > > > > > maybe dead, from his perspective.   
   > > > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > > Not sure as to whom you are speaking of here.   
   > > > > > > > > >   
      
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