XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.religion.christian
From: usenet@christrose.news
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Thu, 20 Nov 2025 15:11:52 -0500
<3f6uhk55ta73bonnm4lh7muvuvronsuru1@4ax.com>
"Sincerely", "soley from the Bible" and
"Honestly is my middle name"
James wrote:
========================================
>> • Jesus and the apostles describe conscious, unending punishment—not
>> non-existence.
> When something is destroyed, it no longer exists. And the Bible
> continuously says the evildoers get destruction. (Mt 7:13; Mt 21:41;
> Rom 9:22; Php 1:28; 3:19) As well as:
>
> - New King James
> 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting
> destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His
> power,
>
> And there are more.
“Destroyed” in Scripture almost never means “ceased to exist.” It
describes *ruin*, *loss*, or being brought into a state where one no
longer functions as intended, not slipping into non-being. Every passage
you cited uses *apollymi* or its noun form *olethros*. Neither word
carries the meaning of annihilation. The Bible uses these same words for
things that continue to exist after being “destroyed.”
Examples of *destroyed* things that still exist:
A lost sheep is “destroyed” (Matthew 18:14, same root). The sheep still
exists.
A lost coin is “destroyed” (Luke 15:9, same root). The coin still exists.
The prodigal son was “dead” and “lost” (Luke 15:24, same root). He
clearly existed.
*Apollumi* means ruined, undone, brought into a disastrous state—not erased.
Now look at the passages you cited.
Matthew 7:13 – “Destruction” lies at the end of the broad road. It
contrasts with “life.” If destruction meant non-existence, the contrast
would be “existence vs. non-existence,” not “life vs. destruction.” The
point is ruin, not extinction.
Matthew 21:41 – The wicked tenants are “miserably destroyed,” yet
Jesus’
story requires that they still consciously experience the consequences
of judgment.
Romans 9:22 – Vessels of wrath are “prepared for destruction,” but Paul
continues to speak of them as moral agents who endure God’s wrath. Wrath
cannot fall on a non-existent object.
Philippians 1:28 – “Destruction” is the opposite of “salvation,” not
the
opposite of “existence.”
Philippians 3:19 – “Whose end is destruction.” Paul is not teaching
their disappearance but their ruin under God’s judgment.
Now the key text you quoted:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 – “Everlasting destruction.”
The Greek phrase is *olethron ai
nion*. It never means “eternal
non-existence.”
*Olethros* = ruin, punishment, severe loss.
*Ai
nios* = eternal, unending.
The very verse you quoted shows annihilation is impossible:
They suffer “everlasting destruction **from the presence of the Lord**”
(2 Thessalonians 1:9, NKJV).
You cannot be “away from” the Lord’s presence if you do not exist.
Separation requires existence.
Paul’s language matches Jesus’ language.
Jesus said *Gehenna* is the place “where their worm does not die and the
fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48, ESV; *hell* [Gehenna]).
A worm that never dies keeps feeding.
A fire never quenched keeps burning.
Neither picture fits extinction.
Jesus also taught degrees of judgment—“more tolerable” for some than
others (Matthew 11:22–24).
Degrees require consciousness.
Jesus said of Judas: “It would have been better for that man if he had
not been born” (Matthew 26:24).
Non-existence and “not being born” are identical states.
Something worse than non-existence cannot be non-existence.
Revelation seals it:
“The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no
rest, day or night” (Revelation 14:11, ESV).
Smoke rising forever cannot come from extinguished persons.
“No rest day or night” requires conscious experience.
The lake of fire receives the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and
“they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation
20:10, ESV).
The same lake receives all whose names are not in the book of life
(Revelation 20:15, ESV).
Scripture never assigns one meaning (ongoing torment) to some occupants
and the opposite meaning (non-existence) to others.
Every text you cite uses words for ruin, not annihilation.
Every text Jesus cites describes unending judgment, not disappearance.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).
https://christrose.news/salvation
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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