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| alt.bible | General bible-thumping discussions | 96,161 messages |
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| Message 95,138 of 96,161 |
| Christ Rose to James |
| Re: The Stupid, Brainwashing Lies of "Je |
| 20 Nov 25 17:51:49 |
XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.religion.christian From: usenet@christrose.news On 11/20/2025 2:11 PM, James wrote: >> • Revelation says, “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and >> ever” (Revelation 14:11, ESV). > Then you are contradicting yourself. > > You believe the rich man and Lazarus to be literal. That would mean > that hellfire is within calling distance of Heaven. Diversionary deceit. Jesus did not say *Gehenna* was within calling distance of Heaven. Luke 16 describes the rich man in *Hades*, not in *Gehenna*. The text says: “the rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment” (Luke 16:22–23, ESV; *hell* [Hades]). Hades is the temporary intermediate state before the resurrection and the final judgment. *Gehenna* is the final place of judgment after the resurrection (Matthew 10:28; Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:14–15). Two different places, two different times, two different purposes. Hades is temporary. *Gehenna* is final. Revelation 20:14 shows Hades “thrown into the lake of fire,” proving they are distinct. Revelation 14:11 describes the smoke of torment rising forever. That matches the *final* judgment, not the intermediate state in Luke 16. Nothing in Revelation places that smoke within hearing distance of Heaven; it describes the endurance of judgment, not spatial proximity. No contradiction exists between Luke 16 (Hades) and Revelation 14–20 (*Gehenna* and the lake of fire). > But Revelation says the smoke goes up from hellfire forever. > Then it must reach Heaven and beyond for the Great Smokeout. Idem. Revelation 14:11 does not describe smoke rising into Heaven’s dwelling place. It describes smoke rising forever, the same way Isaiah 34:10 says Edom’s smoke “shall go up forever.” That does not mean it reaches the throne of God. It means the judgment endures with no end. The language marks permanence, not altitude. > You see, misinterpreting the Scriptures can promote some odd > deductions. Which explains your denials and contradictions to what these passages actually say. You're the one imposing ideas on Scripture which are not indicated by Scripture. Like saying Jesus is Almighty God and then reading: Diversionary distraction and stupid, refuted lies, as will be shown (for the 100th time) below: > Only God is good. (Luke 18:19) > Jesus didn't know the day or hour. Only God did. (Mt 24:36) > Cannot look at God and still live. (Ex 33:20) > No man has ever seen God; (1 John 4:12) > We have the same God as Jesus. (Mt 27:46) > No one has seen the Father. (John 6:46) > Jesus said he was the start of God's creations. (Rev 3:14) > Yes, Jesus was created by God (Col 1:15) > God is not a three headed freak, but only ONE God. (Deut 6:4) > God is not a three headed freak, but only ONE God. (Mr 12:29) > Only God is good. (Mr 10:18) > Jesus said must worship and serve ONLY God. (Mt 4:10) > In Heaven, God is STILL the HEAD of Jesus. (1 Cor 11:3) > Jesus' own angel said to "Worship God", not Jesus (Rev 19:10) > > Again, notice 1 John 4:12a, > > New King James > 1 John 4:12a No one has seen God at any time. More diversionary lies. Every one of these verses fits perfectly with the incarnation: the eternal Son took true humanity and voluntarily took the place of a servant while never ceasing to be who He is. You cited: “No one has seen God at any time” (1 John 4:12). Yet John wrote that after saying, “No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, He has made Him known” (John 1:18, ESV). John says Jesus is the “only God” (monogenēs theos) who explains the unseen Father. “Only God is good” (Luke 18:19). Jesus did not deny being good. He forced the man to consider the implication of calling Him “good.” If God alone is good, and Jesus is good, then Jesus is God. “Jesus did not know the day or hour” (Matthew 24:36). In His human role as the incarnate Son, He accepted the Father’s authority over His mission (John 5:19; Philippians 2:6–8). Limitation in His human experience does not erase His divine nature. Just as wives submitting to husbands does not mean they are a lower class of being, so Christ's submission to the Father does not mean He is a lower class of being. That you try to contend this again and again after it has been shown from the Bible, shows what a complete, brainwashing idiot you are. “No man can see God and live” (Exodus 33:20). Because Jesus was not a man when until after He came to earth. That proves His pre-existence and that He is God. When He rose He sat at the right hand of God as both God and man. That is exactly John’s point: “the only God…has made Him known” (John 1:18). The Son reveals the unseen Father. “No one has seen the Father” (John 6:46). idem. Because the Son had to reveal Him in a human body to keep men from dying on the spot. Seeing Christ is seeing the Father (John 14:9). “Jesus said He was the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14). You've been shown this 100 times, and have no refuted what the Bible actually teaches. The Greek word archē means origin, source, or ruler, not “first created.” Jesus is the origin of creation, just as John 1:3 teaches: “All things were made through Him.” “Jesus is the firstborn of creation” (Colossians 1:15). Pr totokos means preeminent heir, not first created. The very next verse says, “by Him all things were created” (Colossians 1:16). A created being cannot create “all things.” “God is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29). One God in three Persons. Scripture calls the Father God, the Son God (John 1:1; John 20:28; Titus 2:13), and the Spirit God (Acts 5:3–4). That is not “three-headed.” That is one Being shared by three Persons. “In heaven, God is the head of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:3). Headship describes role, not essence. Christ remains fully God while serving the Father’s plan (1 Corinthians 15:28). “Worship God, not angels” (Revelation 19:10). Correct. Angels reject worship. But the Father commands all angels to worship the Son (Hebrews 1:6). Only God receives worship. The Son also receives it, an did not refute those who worshiped Him. Now return to the final point: 1 John 4:12 — “No one has seen God at any time.” Yet Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28, ESV). Jesus accepted that confession. [continued in next message] --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2) |
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