XPost: alt.religion.christian, alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.   
   hristnet.christnews   
   From: usenet@christrose.news   
      
   On 11/30/2025 10:48 AM, Robert wrote:   
   > On 11/24/25 5:43 PM, Christ Rose wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>> Then look at the freedom from sin, freed from the desire to sin or   
   >>> placate the body and its desires   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> We are freed from the *obligation* to sin the minute we trust Christ   
   >> as Savior (Romans 6). We are not freed from the presence of our sin   
   >> nature, however, till glory (Philippians 3:20-21). We wait in hope for   
   >> the redemption of our bodies and the riddance of that old nature   
   >> (Romans 8:23-25).   
   >>   
   >   
   > Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;   
   > death hath no more dominion over him.   
   >   
   > Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he   
   > liveth, he liveth unto God.   
   >   
   > Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,   
   > but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.   
   >   
   > Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should   
   > obey it in the lusts thereof.   
   >   
   > Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness   
   > unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from   
   > the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.   
   >   
   > Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under   
   > the law, but under grace.   
   >   
   > Why does the scriptures teach the above if you are so correct?   
      
      
   These verses you cite show that we are not obligated to sin and that we   
   are empowered and expected to live right. However, they not only do not   
   state that the old nature ceases to exist, but prove that it doesn't:   
      
   "reckon...yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin"   
      
   If the sin nature ceased to exist within us, no one would need to reckon   
   himself dead to sin. He would not have any sin nature within him to   
   tempt him to sin, that he should have to "reckon" it to be dead.   
      
   "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body..."   
      
   The fact you're not supposed to let it reign means it exists and will   
   reign if you don't stop it. If it's not there, then there's no reason to   
   tell people not to let it reign.   
      
      
   > There is an old nature one that that troubles a non-believer. However a   
   > Born Again person is given a New Nature, a Divine Nature, one that is   
   > empowered by the Holy Spirit. One that supersedes the old one.   
      
      
   The believer is given a new nature, but the old nature is not eradicated   
   till glory. This is clearly stated in Romans 7b and 8:   
      
   “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?   
   Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve   
   the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”   
   (Romans 7:24–25, ESV)   
      
   "Who will deliver me from this body of death" is in the future tense. He   
   waits for a future deliverance from the body in which his fleshly nature   
   still resides.   
      
   “But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the   
   Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:10, ESV)   
      
   The phrase "body is dead because of sin" shows that the body "is" still   
   dead because of sin, not that it "was dead" because of sin. Your body   
   and fleshly nature remain spiritually dead although you receive   
   spiritual life in Christ. We still wait for the redemption of our body   
   with it's old, dead nature.   
      
   “For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons   
   of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but   
   because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will   
   be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the   
   glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has   
   been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not   
   only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the   
   Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the   
   redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that   
   is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for   
   what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” (Romans 8:19–25, ESV)   
      
   It says "in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its   
   bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the   
   children of God". Although we have the "firstfruits of the Spirit", we   
   still "groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the   
   redemption of our bodies". This is called "hope". We don't hope for what   
   we see, but for what "we do not see".   
      
   This shows that the believer has the Holy Spirit and has been set free   
   from the obligation to sin, yet that his body with its old nature   
   remains in bondage to corruption until the redemption of our bodies in   
   glory. This is a "hope" we wait for, just as Paul said:   
      
   “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?   
   Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve   
   the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”   
   (Romans 7:24–25, ESV)   
      
      
   > 2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that   
   > pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath   
   > called us to glory and virtue:   
      
      
   Yep. Everything we need to have life and godliness has been given. This   
   does not speak to the removal of the old nature.   
      
      
   > 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:   
   > that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped   
   > the corruption that is in the world through lust.   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue;   
   > and to virtue knowledge;   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to   
   > patience godliness;   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness   
   > charity.   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye   
   > shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord   
   > Jesus Christ.   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar   
   > off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your   
   > calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:   
   >   
   > 2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into   
   > the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.   
   >   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)