[continued from previous message]   
      
   >   
   >>   
   >> He even refutes the idea of immediate heavenly entrance:   
   >   
   > Wrong again. Those of the 144,000, like Paul, go immediately to Heaven   
   > when they die. (1 Cor 15:51,52) They don't go 'asleep' like the rest   
   > of us. (Mt 11:11)   
   >   
   >>   
   >>       “We suppose that the prison of hell is a subterranean region, and   
   >>        that no soul is released from it until the resurrection.” (A   
   >>        Treatise on the Soul 58)   
   >>   
   > There is no conscieneness in hell. (sheol; grave)   
   >   
   >> Tertullian explicitly rejects the idea that OT saints (or anyone else)   
   >> went to heaven before the resurrection.   
   >>   
   >> 4. Hippolytus (Against Plato, c. AD 225)   
   >>   
   >> Hippolytus describes the righteous dead as being in a compartment of   
   >> Hades, not heaven.   
   >   
   > They are in a 'compartment' of their grave.   
   >   
   >>   
   >>       “The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfailing   
   >>        kingdom… but now they are detained in the bosom of the just.”   
   >>        (Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe 1)   
   >>   
   >> He places the righteous in a “detained” state—not in he   
   ven—awaiting the   
   >> resurrection.   
   >   
   > It seems like they are dancing around the subject but never coming out   
   > and saying it. Those dead ones are not conscience.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> 5. Augustine (Enchiridion, c. AD 420)   
   >>   
   >> Augustine affirms that OT saints were in “the bosom of Abraham,” not   
   >> heaven, before Christ.   
   >   
   > Just how big is Abraham's bosom? Can he accommodate millions?   
   >   
   >>   
   >>       “The souls of the pious dead were in secret receptacles,   
   >>        according to their merits, until Christ’s resurrection.”   
   >>        (Enchiridion 109)   
   >   
   > Pure fantasy. Not the least Biblical.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Augustine explicitly states that OT saints were not in heaven but in   
   >> “receptacles” (usually interpreted as the blessed part of Hades) until   
   >> Christ’s resurrection.   
   >>   
   >> Summary   
   >>   
   >> Across the early church:   
   >>   
   >> No one taught OT saints went directly to heaven at death.   
   >   
   > The Catholic Church did and probably does today.   
   >   
   > The same with the Baptist Church as far as I know.   
   >>   
   >> Virtually all Fathers describe the righteous dead in a waiting place,   
   >> usually called:   
   >>   
   >> Hades   
   >   
   > NT grave. Sheol is OT grave.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Paradise   
   >   
   > What the earth will eventually be like.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Bosom of Abraham   
   >   
   > Not medically feasible.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> “Secret receptacles”   
   >   
   > Is that like the movie Secret Window?   
   >   
   >>   
   >> “The regions beneath the earth”   
   >   
   > You mean boiling lava?   
   >   
   >>   
   >> These terms describe the blessed portion of the underworld, not heaven.   
   >>   
   >> This directly contradicts Watchtower James’ claim.   
   >   
   > Only if today's churches follow those men's writings, which I doubt.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Works Cited   
   >>   
   >> Augustine. Enchiridion. In Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series,   
   >> Vol. 3. Edited by Philip Schaff, Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.   
   >>   
   >> Hippolytus. Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe. In Ante-Nicene   
   >> Fathers, Vol. 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson,   
   >> Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.   
   >>   
   >> Irenaeus. Against Heresies. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1. Edited by   
   >> Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature Publishing   
   >> Co., 1885.   
   >>   
   >> Justin Martyr. Dialogue with Trypho. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1.   
   >> Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature   
   >> Publishing Co., 1885.   
   >>   
   >> Tertullian. A Treatise on the Soul. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3.   
   >> Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Christian Literature   
   >> Publishing Co., 1885.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> So yes, I am convinced Watchtower James intentionally misrepresents both   
   >> what the "Churches" believe and what the Bible actually says.   
   >   
   > Your OPINION is again noted.   
   >   
   > You missed one about Plato and Aristotle and the immortal soul:   
   >   
   > Funk and Wagnall's Encyclopedia says,   
   >   
   > "Early Judaism considered the human personality as a whole, without   
   > making a sharp distinction between body and soul....The Christian   
   > doctrine of the soul has been strongly influenced by the philosophies   
   > of Plato and Aristotle."   
   >   
   > "What does the Bible say about   
   > Gratitude? Find Out".   
   > See jw.org (12/1/2025)   
   > James: zebrabible@proton.me   
   >   
   >   
   >   
      
      
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   raised Him from the dead?   
      
   That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death   
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   2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your   
   sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.   
      
   On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on   
   the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name   
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