XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.religion.christian   
   From: usenet@christrose.news   
      
   You repeatedly argue, “If the dead are conscious, then they are not   
   dead.” Scripture does not define death as non-existence. Scripture   
   defines death as separation.   
      
         • Physical death separates the soul from the body (James 2:26;   
           Ecclesiastes 12:7).   
      
         • Spiritual death separates the sinner from God (Isaiah 59:2;   
           Ephesians 2:1).   
      
   Adam died the day he sinned, yet he continued to exist and speak   
   (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:8–10, ESV). If death meant non-existence, Adam   
   vanished that day. He did not.   
      
   You insist that consciousness after death would make man immortal by   
   nature. Conscious existence is not the same as self-existent   
   immortality. Angels are conscious and finite. Demons are conscious and   
   finite. Consciousness does not equal deity.   
      
   You claim Ecclesiastes proves unconsciousness. Ecclesiastes explicitly   
   limits its perspective to “under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 1:3, ESV). The   
   same book affirms that the spirit returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7,   
   ESV). That alone refutes annihilation. A force does not “return” to God.   
   Breath does not account for moral accountability, judgment, or personal   
   reckoning.   
      
   You dismiss Luke 23:43 by moving the comma. This shows what a stupid   
   hypocrite you are. You claim elsewhere that the stated meaning cannot be   
   so obvious that it would not need to be stated. Yet to twist the meaning   
   of this passage, you claim that what Jesus really meant to do was to   
   inform this man that today was the day he was informing him about where   
   he would be at some point in the future. As if the man wouldn't have   
   realized that he was being told about it today. This shows what an   
   insincere, double-minded hypocrite you are. You feign deep personal   
   conviction that the Bible couldn't mean what it plainly states   
   elsewhere, because that would be too obvious. Then you claim that this   
   man wouldn't have realized that today was the day Jesus was informing   
   him about the future, so that must be what "today" means there.   
      
   Greek manuscripts have no punctuation. Word order controls meaning.   
   “Today” modifies “you will be with me,” not “I say to you.” Your   
   interpretation makes Jesus state the obvious and drains the sentence of   
   meaning.   
      
   You mock Luke 16 by hyper-literalism. Scripture never teaches that   
   symbols reverse reality. Parables and illustrations communicate truth   
   consistent with their imagery, not the opposite. Fire represents   
   torment. Thirst represents conscious suffering. Memory functions. Speech   
   functions. Moral awareness functions. Your reading requires every detail   
   to collapse into absurdity while the lesson disappears.   
      
   You argue that sleep proves unconsciousness. Jesus Himself defines the   
   metaphor. “Lazarus has died” (John 11:14, ESV). Sleep describes the   
   body’s condition, not the soul’s awareness. Scripture never says the   
   soul sleeps. Scripture says the body sleeps in the grave while the   
   spirit departs.   
      
   You claim necromancy would be permissible if the dead were conscious.   
   Scripture forbids it because God forbids it, not because of a mechanical   
   limitation (Deuteronomy 18:11, ESV). The prohibition rests on rebellion,   
   not metaphysics. Scripture explicitly identifies Samuel speaking to Saul   
   (1 Samuel 28:15, ESV). You assert demon substitution without a single   
   verse saying so.   
      
   You appeal to Ezekiel 18:4 to prove annihilation. The text says the soul   
   that sins shall die, not cease to exist. Scripture repeatedly uses “die”   
   to mean judgment, separation, and loss, not erasure (Matthew 10:28, ESV).   
      
   You accuse others of speculation while asserting entire doctrines   
   Scripture never teaches:   
   • souls cease to exist   
   • demons impersonate every apparition   
   • paradise equals future earth in Luke 23   
   • only 144,000 experience conscious presence with Christ   
      
   None of these claims appear in Scripture.   
      
   Your position repeatedly collapses into contradiction:   
      
   • You deny consciousness after death, yet assign consciousness to the   
   spirit when convenient.   
   • You deny symbolism means what it depicts, yet insist symbols negate   
   their meaning.   
   • You deny immortality, yet redefine death so that no one truly dies.   
      
   Scripture teaches progressive revelation. Later revelation clarifies   
   earlier observation. Ecclesiastes observes death. The New Testament   
   explains it.   
      
   Scripture speaks plainly:   
      
   • The dead are conscious (Luke 16:23, ESV).   
   • The righteous depart to be with Christ (Philippians 1:23; 2   
   Corinthians 5:8, ESV).   
   • The wicked experience conscious judgment (Revelation 14:11, ESV).   
   • Immortality comes by resurrection, not by nature (1 Corinthians   
   15:53–54, ESV).   
      
   The issue is not symbolism, translation, or philosophy. The issue is   
   whether later Scripture governs earlier Scripture. Scripture says it does.   
      
   Where Scripture speaks, we submit. Where Scripture remains silent, we do   
   not invent doctrines to escape its warnings.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)