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| alt.bible | General bible-thumping discussions | 96,161 messages |
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| Message 95,656 of 96,161 |
| Christ Rose to All |
| Re: The Bible Shows Christ is "God", not |
| 27 Dec 25 08:39:33 |
XPost: alt.religion.christian From: usenet@christrose.news “For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:5–8, ESV) Jesus = "son" Angels = "ministers" The question "to which of God's angels did God ever say" is rhetorical. The answer is NONE. To NONE of the angels did God EVER say "You are my Son". Yet the Father said this to the "Son", Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not any of God's angels. He is the superior "Son". Jesus = "Your throne, O God" Angels = "Let ALL God's angels worship him". God the Father Himself calls Jesus "God". Not "a god", but "God". "ALL" God's angels are called on to "worship him" (Jesus as "God"). Jesus created "all" things, including "all" angels “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:16, ESV). There is no "other" in Colossians 1. Jesus created "all" things, including the angelic forces and powers. And no, "firstborn" does NOT refer to being created, but to His rights and privileges as the Creator: “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27, ESV). David was the youngest son of Jesse, not the first born. God calls him firstborn because He gave him supremacy and kingly rank. “Israel is my firstborn son” (Exodus 4:22, ESV). Israel was not the first nation created. God calls Israel firstborn because of covenant privilege and special standing. “Ephraim is my firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9, ESV). Ephraim was younger than Manasseh. God assigns firstborn status based on choice and blessing, not birth order. “He is before all things” (Colossians 1:17, ESV). Someone who exists before all things cannot be part of the created order. “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son’?” (Hebrews 1:5, ESV). Scripture separates sonship and inheritance from angels, showing firstborn language belongs to authority, not creation. “I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’” (Psalm 2:7, ESV). This speaks of royal installation and authority, not the beginning of existence. In Scripture, “firstborn” consistently denotes rank, inheritance, and authority given by God, not being created first. Daniel 10–12 Michael is called “one of the chief princes” (Daniel 10:13, ESV). “One of” places Michael among other angelic rulers. Scripture never places Jesus among equals (Hebrews 1:3, ESV). Michael “has charge of your people,” Israel (Daniel 12:1, ESV). Jesus has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18, ESV). Scripture never calls Michael Son, Lord, God, Creator, or King. Scripture repeatedly applies those titles to Jesus (Hebrews 1:2–8, ESV). Exodus 23; 32; 33 — the angel who led Israel Scripture never names Michael in these passages (Exodus 23:20; 32:34; 33:2, ESV). Scripture identifies this angel as acting with divine authority. “My name is in him” (Exodus 23:21, ESV). Angels are never given God’s name. Scripture elsewhere identifies the Angel of the Lord as God speaking as God. “God called to him out of the bush” when “the angel of the Lord appeared” (Exodus 3:2–6, ESV). Scripture never identifies Michael as the Angel of the Lord. Jude 9 — the dispute over Moses’ body Michael is explicitly called “the archangel” (Jude 9, ESV). Scripture never calls Jesus an angel. Michael does not exercise judgment on his own authority. “The Lord rebuke you” (Jude 9, ESV). Michael appeals to a higher authority. Jesus rebukes Satan directly. “Be gone, Satan” (Matthew 4:10, ESV). 1 Thessalonians 4:16 — “the voice of the archangel” “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, ESV) Note: "with [en] the sound of the trumpet of God". So we're to understand that this "actually" means Jesus IS the trumpet? "en" COMMONLY means "with", when it is associated by things which accompany. For example: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (ἐν πνε ματι ἁγίῳ) (Matthew 3:11, ESV). This does not mean the person becomes the Holy Spirit. It means the Spirit accompanies the act as the means. “He spoke to them in parables” (ἐν παραβολαῖς) (Matthew 13:3, ESV). This does not mean He was inside parables. It describes the manner in which He spoke. “They heard a sound from heaven like a mighty rushing wind” (ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ) (Acts 2:2, ESV). This does not mean the apostles were inside the sound. The sound accompanied the event. “I thank my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus” (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ) (1 Corinthians 1:4, ESV). This does not mean believers are physically inside Christ. It describes relationship and association. “Their voice has gone out through all the earth” (ἐν πάσῃ τῇ γῇ) (Romans 10:18, ESV). This does not mean the voice is contained inside the earth. It describes extent and accompaniment. In the same way, “with the voice of an archangel” and “with the trumpet of God” describe what accompanies the Lord’s descent, not what the Lord is (1 Thessalonians 4:16, ESV). Any reasonable person who isn't knowingly trying to impose a lie into the text would admit that Jesus is NOT a trumpet, and would also admit He's therefore NOT the archangel who descends "with" Him. Scripture never says the Lord is the archangel. -- Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God raised Him from the dead? [continued in next message] --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2) |
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