XPost: alt.christnet.christnews, alt.religion.christian
From: usenet@christrose.news
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Wed, 28 Jan 2026 13:07:59 -0500
<765knkhaeodljh4hf63qjgfu5onflri95r@4ax.com>
Watchtower Heretic James wrote:
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>> Make no mistake. The present heavens and earth WILL be destroyed by
>> fire, folded up like a garment, and flee. They will be replaced with a
>> new heavens and earth, where God will dwell with all believers, not just
>> 144,000 Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation.
Notice, he's no longer arguing for an eternal earth, since so many
passages in the Old and New Testament show that "olam" does NOT
necessitate never ending duration, AND because many passages show the
present heavens and earth will be destroyed, dissolved by fire, flee
away, and be replaced like a robe with a new heavens and earth. His
interpretation requires Scripture to contradict Scripture, which proves
it is a lie. The present heavens and earth are not eternal and will be
dissolved by fire and replaced with a new heavens and earth.
> Negatrons, negatrons. You are making the Bible again fit to your
> doctrines.
The liar accuses of exactly what his view does all day long every day of
the week. You do almost nothing but promote Bible-contradicting lies
which requires people to believe that Scripture contradicts Scripture as
you mostly ignore New Testament revelation when it says things you don't
want to hear.
> And Paul talked about SPIRITUAL Jews on the inside. Thus the 144,000
> can be make up of people all over the world, who became Christians.
> Rom 2:28,29,
>
> " 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that
> circumcision which is outward in the flesh;
> 29. but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of
> the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not
> from men but from God." (NKJV)
Romans 2:28–29 does not redefine Gentile believers as Jews. Paul is not
changing ethnic categories. He is exposing hypocrisy and showing what
true covenant faith looks like within Israel.
“For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly…” (Romans 2:28–29,
NKJV).
Paul’s argument in Romans 1–3 is about guilt before God, not prophetic
identity. His conclusion is not “Gentiles become Jews,” but:
“All, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin” (Romans 3:9, ESV).
If Romans 2 turned Christians worldwide into Jews, Paul would never say
this later:
“Has God rejected his people? By no means!” (Romans 11:1, ESV).
“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:29, ESV).
Paul explicitly maintains a distinction between Israel and the nations
after Romans 2. That alone forbids your reading.
Now look at Revelation 7, because this is where your argument collapses.
“And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe
of the sons of Israel” (Revelation 7:4, ESV).
John does not say:
– spiritual Israel
– inward Jews
– believers worldwide
He names tribes. Twelve of them. One by one (Revelation 7:5–8).
Then John immediately introduces a second group:
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could
number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages”
(Revelation 7:9, ESV).
Two groups. Different descriptions. Different identifiers.
If the 144,000 are just “Christians everywhere,” then Revelation 7
becomes incoherent:
– Why number one group precisely and say the other cannot be numbered?
– Why list tribes at all?
– Why say “after this” if it is the same group?
You are not letting Revelation define its own terms. You are importing
Romans 2 and flattening distinctions the text itself insists on.
And the charge of “making the Bible fit doctrines” does not land where
you think it does.
Your position requires:
– heavens = ruling class
– earth = people
– sea = mankind
– Israel = symbolic when inconvenient
– numbers = literal sometimes, symbolic other times
That is not exegesis. That is systematic redefinition.
By contrast, the position you are attacking simply reads the nouns as
nouns and lets Scripture interpret Scripture:
– Heavens mean heavens (Psalm 102:25–26; Hebrews 1:10–12)
– Earth means earth (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11)
– Israel means Israel (Revelation 7:4–8)
– Nations mean nations (Revelation 7:9)
No passage is being forced to cancel another.
And none of this changes the central issue you keep trying to deflect from:
Scripture repeatedly and explicitly teaches that the present heavens and
earth end.
“They will perish… like a garment they will be changed” (Psalm 102:26,
ESV).
“The heavens will pass away with a roar” (2 Peter 3:10, ESV).
“From his presence earth and sky fled away” (Revelation 20:11, ESV).
“The first heaven and the first earth passed away” (Revelation 21:1, ESV).
God then brings a new creation where all the redeemed dwell with Him.
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man” (Revelation 21:3, ESV).
Not just 144,000.
Not a ruling class.
All the redeemed.
Romans 2 does not overturn Revelation 7.
Romans 11 explicitly prevents that move.
And Revelation itself draws the lines you are trying to erase.
This is not doctrine-shaping.
It is letting the text say what it says.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died for our sins (†), and God
raised Him from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the dead shows Christ's death
satisfied God's righteous demands against our sin (Romans 3:25; 1 John
2:1-2). This means God can now remain just, while forgiving you of your
sins, and saving you from eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you: "For 'everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved'" (Romans 10:13, ESV).
https://christrose.news/salvation
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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