From: teliok@hotmail.com   
      
   You complain that in Stalinist russia, they could come into your room and   
   bug your room and listen to your conversations and invade your personal   
   space, with despotic authorty.. and that's bad.. i agree   
      
   and this is just after "We will clean up the tyrants in the middle east"   
      
   can you not see the contradiction?   
      
   Your viewpoint is that, a) no one acan arbitrarily spy on me, invade my   
   privacy, come into my personal area and meddle with my posessions, and b) i   
   can go into anyone's area and meddle with their posessions, spy on them,   
   invade their privacy, and their country with military force, if needs be.   
      
   This is totally contradictary.   
      
   To stalin, i'm sure westerners posed a material and imminent threat, to   
   steal a line from your own Donald Rumsfeld.  Westerners bringin in their   
   "tyrrany of the marketplace" would come in and attempt tom steal his own   
   authorty and supplant it with the authorty of Ford...   
      
   If you ahve the right to invade willy nilly the small and petty depots of   
   insignificant countries that don't threaten you in any way, surely they had   
   the right to listen to your small and insignificant conversatoins in your   
   hotel room?   
      
   Also, another thing about cleaning up the despots of europe.. don't forget   
   it was with american engines that hitler's panzer divisions swept into   
   denmark and france...  It was with american calculating machines that the   
   Whermacht ran its beurocracy..   The USA supplied hitler with anything he   
   needed.. turned a blind eye to the invasion of Abyssinia by Mousolini...   
      
   EVEN UP UNTIL 1940, the USA was STILL helping hitler (AND simultaneously,   
   supplying canada with weapons to fight hitler, as Canada declared war on   
   hitler in 1939)   
      
   The USA has had a hand in propping up most of the notorious despots in the   
   20th century.  Mousollini and Hitler and Franco after WW1 (though, to be   
   fair, they did unsuccessfully aid the invasion of Russia in the early 1920),   
   Pol Pot and the Kmerr Rouge, i don't need to go into Allende's presidential   
   home bombing by american airplanes on, notably, Sept 11, 1973 (a   
   democratically elected leader killed, and then a brutal vicious military   
   dictator put into office)..   
      
   You want to talk about Despots on the middle east?  Saddam might be mean,   
   but he was ineffecacious against the USA.  A larger threat comes from Saudi   
   Arabia.  An even LARGER threat to the USA comes from the Israeli   
   dictatorship of the Palestinian territories (the spawning place for, or   
   focal point of, all major muslim terrorist organizations).  Why not throw   
   the israelis out of the west bank and the gaza strip?  Enforce a border   
   between ISrael and a new Palestinian state, and force the Israeli's to   
   accept the will of america?  Why not overthrow, if it's just depots you're   
   after, Pervez Musharraf?  The dictator of Pakistan?   
      
      
   ALot of americans talk of "Spreading Democracy" and "stopping tyrrany".. but   
   history shows that the USA has a pattern of stopping democracy and   
   supporting tyrrany.  And once in every 30 years or so, it becomes necessary   
   to conquor a country, so then, suddenly, the tyrant has to go.. then,   
   suddenly, the USA is against tyrrany.   
      
   And in the WHOLE process, the single office of the president gets more and   
   more powers voted to him.  Superconstitutional powers now (with the patriot   
   act)... A gathering tyrrany in the USA is manifesting, and anyone who says   
   anything about it is shouted down with the speed that any Oceanian would   
   shout down Goldstein..   
      
   without even investigating, most americans prefer to think that the   
   possibility of american tyrrany is so unlikely, that they are safe.. without   
   even looking..   
      
   It's amazing what your government has gotten you guys to believe, that you   
   could even pose such an argument as the one that spawned this post.. that a)   
   stalin can't come into my room arbitrarily even if he is defending the   
   interests of his country and b) i can go into any coutnry arbitrarily, on   
   the other hand, even if I am defending the interests of my country... it   
   just shows the miraculous doublethink being practiced in the USA today.   
      
   That literally you can say when he adds 2 and 2 he gets 5, but when I add 2   
   and 2 i get 3...   
      
   anyhow..   
      
   1984 is, i remind you, not a book against leftism, it's a book against   
   stalinism (which is not in any way shape or form, left wing).   
      
   Don't bother calling me a "leftist".  I'm not one.  I think communal slavery   
   is just as bad as private slavery.   
      
      
   > we cleaned up depsots from europe and the far east after wwll and we will   
   > do   
   > the same in the middle east.   
   >   
   >   
   >> i can't immagine you actually read 1984.   
   >>   
   >   
   > read the book saw the play went to the movie and in one o the firs tour   
   > groups   
   > to the soviet union after WWII, i actually LIVED it -  very bizarre having   
   > an   
   > offical on every floor of very hotel noting your comein and going from   
   > your   
   > room- and yes every hotel frequented by westerners was bugged and yes I   
   > was   
   > hauled down to the police staion with my mom.   
   >   
   > you and other leftists would not know a despot if it sealed off the   
   > largest   
   > country in europe and starved it to death. (and you did'nt)   
   >   
   > bmp   
   >   
   > bmp   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)