Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"
|    alt.books.george-orwell    |    Discussing 1984, sadly coming true...    |    4,149 messages    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
|    Message 3,234 of 4,149    |
|    ROBBIE to All    |
|    Let's just admit that Iraq was a disaste    |
|    06 Apr 06 08:56:52    |
      From: word_chemist@hotmail.com              'Well, the democratic impulses of the people of Palestine and Iran (and       Egypt) soon put paid to that idea; given a free vote (and I accept that the       Iranian vote was corrupted - in favour, though, of the losing candidate) the       people of the Middle East wish for governments more antithetical to the       West, more inclined to abuse human rights, more anti-Semitic, more       authoritarian.'                     The Spectator 18 March 2006       Other articles by this author Features       Liddle Britain       Let's just admit that Iraq was a disaster       Rod Liddle                      'April 9 - Liberation Day! What a wonderful, magnificent, emotional       occasion - one that will live in legend like the fall of the Bastille, VE       Day or the fall of the Berlin Wall.'                     Those are the words of the born-again neocon journalist William Shawcross,       written in a fit of hyperbolic glee when he saw that hideous, lowering       bronze statue of Saddam Hussein brought crashing to the ground on 9 April       2003 - the day the allies took Baghdad. You could not read those words today       without either flinching or assuming them to be a sort of dark, heavy-handed       satire; still less his contention (paraphrasing an Iraqi dissident) that 9       April saw the blossoming of Iraq's 'Eternal Spring'. A little later on the       same day an American soldier hoisted the Stars and Stripes aloft over the       Iraqi capital; it flapped about in the breeze for a bit before the Western       politicians saw it on their evening news channels and, aghast, immediately       reached for their phones. Both the destruction of that statue and the       raising of the US flag are pretty potent symbols; the latter maybe a shade       more subtle, calling to mind not simply a crude and inappropriate US       triumphalism, but also a sense of misplaced action, confusion, incompetence,       a not knowing of why we were there or what we would do next. And a none too       discreet message beamed across the Arab and Muslim worlds.       To be fair to Shawcross, the debate about the Iraq war has been       characterised by many such examples of hyperbole and over-statement, on both       sides, the respective positions ludicrously entrenched and inviolable, the       facts distorted to fit each polarised perspective. For example, it seemed       impossible for those who initially opposed the war to accept that the       invasion was, militarily, superbly prosecuted. Those rare military setbacks       were pounced upon with a kind of grotesque delight: there, we told you so.       As if the immoral basis for the war (as they saw it) precluded the       possibility of it being successfully effected.              And then there's this: if you were in favour of the war, then you were       likely to discount entirely the possibility that it had any bearing       whatsoever upon the minds of those British-born lunatics who carried out the       bombings in London on 7 July last year. Whereas if you were opposed, the two       events were a simple case of cause and effect. Both positions seem to me       wrong and illogical; I suspect that the war served to legitimise - in the       minds of many Muslims, including the bombers - atrocities against civilian       Londoners; we were aggressors and thus combatants by direct association. But       this was not the main reason that the bombing was carried out and nor did it       retrospectively mean that the war in Iraq was unjust.              Another anomaly: those who were in favour of military action found it almost       impossible to concede that the British public was deliberately misled and       arguably lied to over the originally stated reasons for the war. The       Conservatives adopted this position, of course, but more out of political       expediency, I suspect, than objective, rational contemplation. The truth       seems to me blindingly obvious; we were all terribly, unforgivably misled by       a government which felt that the real reasons for military action would not       be swallowed by either the general public or Parliament. But that does not       mean that the war was, per se, wrong. That's a different and in effect       unrelated question, which I'll come to later.              And then there's the manipulation of the statistics, the totting up of the       body counts - the black maths. Some 2,500 Coalition troops killed, including       103 British servicemen. More than 17,000 wounded. The total number of Iraqi       civilians killed since the overthrow of Saddam, at a conservative estimate,       is 37,754. The murder rate has increased each month since April 2003. Some       20 killed per day in year one, 31 per day in year two, 40 per day in year       three. You can juggle these how you like. A year or so ago I suggested that,       practically, Iraqis had been better off under Saddam Hussein than they were       now, since liberation. It was a response to the relentless, dumb insistence       from those who had ordered the war - Bush, Blair - that 'at least we've got       rid of that genocidal murderer Saddam'. As if this were the irreducible,       unanswerable truth which nothing could possibly gainsay; all other arguments       being thus rendered impotent. And yet, of course, for the vast majority of       Iraqis life was much better under a Saddam Hussein scrutinised and policed       by the international community; fewer of them died every day, fewer were       maimed, there was only limited sectarian violence, and civil war did not       hover and crackle just out of sight. This assertion was pounced upon by       Shawcross and other increasingly shrill neocon cheerleaders as evidence of a       leftist moral degeneracy; how could one stick up for Saddam? But that was       never the point. Saddam was and is a vicious and murderous gangster (who,       over the course of his stewardship of Iraq, murdered an estimated 60 people       every day, on average. But not, crucially, in those last five years when he       was being harassed by the West). The point was this: have we made things       better? Might things get better in even the medium term? Was the thesis upon       which the war was predicated correct? Was war preferable to continuing to       'contain' Saddam? And the answer to all of these questions is - never mind       which side your original position might have been - surely an unequivocal       'no'.              Let us put the stuff about oil to one side; in fact let us, for the sake of       argument, assume that oil does not exist and is thus removed, as a motive       for the war, from the equation. The reason we contrived to share the US       thirst for military action has been explained to me, quietly but with force,       from three fairly senior sources. Firstly, the belief that a sort of       Western-friendly, semi-secular but still kind of Islamic democracy could be              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
(c) 1994, bbs@darkrealms.ca