From: fedora@fea.st
On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:45:47 -0500, Wilson
wrote:
>On 2/16/2026 8:53 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 05:02:33 +0000, Creon wrote:
>>> At Sat, 14 Feb 2026 14:30:45 -0500, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 11:27:02 -0800, Dude wrote:
>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:52 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2026 09:27:41 -0800, Dude wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:14 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 12:53 AM, dart200 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/26 9:15 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2026 9:29 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is that governments can grant that they will not impose
>>>>>>>>>>> certain situations on you, which they still might.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But as far as the universe is concerned. You have no rights.
There
>>>>>>>>>>> is no natural law to base social structures on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It there were natural laws that are inherent, universal, and
>>>>>>>>>>> inalienable, derived from human nature and reason rather than
granted
>>>>>>>>>>> by governments, to be inalienable natural laws, there would be no
way
>>>>>>>>>>> to not receive them. Nobody would die, everybody would have
liberty,
>>>>>>>>>>> and loving spouses. The truth is you have no right to such things,
>>>>>>>>>>> and far too many around the world don't have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be natural laws that are inherent, universal, and inalienable,
they
>>>>>>>>>>> would have to apply to everybody in the world, not only americans.
And
>>>>>>>>>>> when suffering people come to america seeking a place where they
can
>>>>>>>>>>> have such things, we could not send them back where they came from.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is a deliberate misstatement of what natural law is all about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is: There are certain principles that work better than others.
>>>>>>>>>> When human law and society aligns with those principles, the systems
>>>>>>>>>> created within that structure perform better, allowing greater human
>>>>>>>>>> flourishing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what worked last century, may not work this century, and will not
work
>>>>>>>>> next century
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > the "law" can change when as technology unfolds
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > #god
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's not how universal principles work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Things like:
>>>>>>>> - Don't steal
>>>>>>>> - Don't initiate harm to or murder other people
>>>>>>>> - Don't deliberately speak untruth
>>>>>>>> - Take responsibility for your actions
>>>>>>>> - Don't envy or promote resentment for what others have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It kind of looks like two informants are not smarter than a fifth
>>>>>>> grader. Maybe they think communism is a better system. It's starting to
>>>>>>> look like that because they don't seem to have any cogent arguments for
>>>>>>> a closed society. YMMV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everyone that's been to school in the US and Europe learned that based
>>>>>>> on international law and philosophical tradition, humans are considered
>>>>>>> to have innate, inherent, and inalienable human rights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Learned. Right that is how social structures get passed down. And
>>>>>> true they must be learned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These rights are not granted by governments, but are possessed by every
>>>>>>> individual from birth simply by virtue of being human.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless they are not permitted by governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Including rights to life, liberty, and freedom, as established by the
UN
>>>>>>> Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe they need to get some
>>>>>>> smarts and read a history book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, too bad the un is so toothless.
>>>>>>
>>>>> So, we are agreed. People have inalienable rights. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. But you agree with yourself.
>>>
>>> I agree with a lot of what you say, Noah, but not this.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> The idea that there are universal, inalienable rights is undone as
>> soon as somebody disagrees with it.
>>
>>> Some rights are inherently part of a human being -- I use
>>> the term "God-given", and perhaps I should star that with the
>>> caveat that "God", to me, is mostly "Logos" -- the Logos of
>>> Heraclitus, c. 500BCE
>>
>> That idea is part of the attitude of those of us who enjoy such govt
>> given rights. It allows us to not pay attention to those who enjoy no
>> such rights. It, after all, is not the fault of evil govt since they
>> have no power to take away such rights, as they obviously do exactly
>> that. So, of course, we have no duty to confront such govts.
>>
>> It is strange sometimes to watch the contortions of human thought.
>>
>>> He used "Logos" to describe the "divine order".
>
>The idea of inherent human rights does not depend on whether people
>agree or disagree with the principles. Likewise the universality of
>those rights are not disproven by a government's power to deny them.
>
>Upholding the idea of universal human rights gives the repressed a place
>to stand and declare their dignity and liberty as they are fighting
>against that repression.
It obscures the fact that govt's repress or grant and are responsible
for that.
>Even if the government wins the battle and
>kills every one of them, the knowledge that there is a reality which
>transcends our temporal lives gives hope to the people to continue on.
>
>The awareness that there are principles which are very real, that show
>humanity the best way to be, tells us that those ideas will never die
>and someday will manifest. Because they are true, unchanging, and an
>intrinsic part of all who live.
And so you continue to contort and I continue to not accept.
Underlying this is your belief that you know the best way to be, and I
emphatically say you know no such thing. Which conflict, if nothing
else, unsays what you want to say about universal principles.
--
Noah Sombrero mustachioed villain
Don't get political with me young man
or I'll tie you to a railroad track and
<<>> to <<>>
Who dares to talk to El Sombrero?
dares: Ned
does not dare: Julian shrinks in horror and warns others away
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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