From: fedora@fea.st   
      
   On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 13:13:23 -0500, Noah Sombrero    
   wrote:   
      
   >On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 17:57:17 -0000 (UTC), Tara    
   >wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Feb 16, 2026 at 12:20:53?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero"  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 11:55:05 -0500, Wilson    
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 2/16/2026 11:19 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:45:47 -0500, Wilson    
   >>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 2/16/2026 8:53 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 05:02:33 +0000, Creon  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> At Sat, 14 Feb 2026 14:30:45 -0500, Noah Sombrero    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 11:27:02 -0800, Dude    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:52 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2026 09:27:41 -0800, Dude    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:14 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 12:53 AM, dart200 wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/26 9:15 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2026 9:29 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is that governments can grant that they will not   
   impose   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain situations on you, which they still might.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But as far as the universe is concerned.  You have no   
   rights.  There   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no natural law to base social structures on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It there were  natural laws that are inherent, universal, and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inalienable, derived from human nature and  reason rather   
   than granted   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by governments, to be inalienable natural laws, there would   
   be no way   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to not receive them.  Nobody would die, everybody would have   
   liberty,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and loving spouses.  The truth is you have no right to such   
   things,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and far too many around the world don't have them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be natural laws that are inherent, universal, and   
   inalienable, they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have to apply to everybody in the world, not only   
   americans. And   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when suffering people come to america seeking a place where   
   they can   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have such things, we could not send them back where they came   
   from.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a deliberate misstatement of what natural law is all   
   about.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is: There are certain principles that work better than   
   others.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When human law and society aligns with those principles, the   
   systems   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created within that structure perform better, allowing greater   
   human   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flourishing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what worked last century, may not work this century, and will   
   not work   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> next century   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>     > the "law" can change when as technology unfolds   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>     >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>     > #god   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not how universal principles work.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Things like:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't steal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't initiate harm to or murder other people   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't deliberately speak untruth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Take responsibility for your actions   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't envy or promote resentment for what others have   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It kind of looks like two informants are not smarter than a fifth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> grader. Maybe they think communism is a better system. It's   
   starting to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> look like that because they don't seem to have any cogent   
   arguments for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> a closed society. YMMV.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that's been to school in the US and Europe learned that   
   based   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> on international law and philosophical tradition, humans are   
   considered   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> to have innate, inherent, and inalienable human rights.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Learned.  Right that is how social structures get passed down.  And   
   >>>>>>>>>>> true they must be learned.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> These rights are not granted by governments, but are possessed by   
   every   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> individual from birth simply by virtue of being human.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Unless they are not permitted by governments.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Including rights to life, liberty, and freedom, as established by   
   the UN   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe they need to get some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> smarts and read a history book.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, too bad the un is so toothless.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> So, we are agreed. People have inalienable rights. Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Nope.  But you agree with yourself.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I agree with a lot of what you say, Noah, but not this.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> The idea that there are universal, inalienable rights is undone as   
   >>>>>>> soon as somebody disagrees with it.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Some rights are inherently part of a human being -- I use   
   >>>>>>>> the term "God-given", and perhaps I should star that with the   
   >>>>>>>> caveat that "God", to me, is mostly "Logos" -- the Logos of   
   >>>>>>>> Heraclitus, c. 500BCE   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> That idea is part of the attitude of those of us who enjoy such govt   
   >>>>>>> given rights.  It allows us to not pay attention to those who enjoy no   
   >>>>>>> such rights.  It, after all, is not the fault of evil govt since they   
   >>>>>>> have no power to take away such rights, as they obviously do exactly   
   >>>>>>> that.  So, of course, we have no duty to confront such govts.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> It is strange sometimes to watch the contortions of human thought.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> He used "Logos" to describe the "divine order".   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> The idea of inherent human rights does not depend on whether people   
   >>>>>> agree or disagree with the principles. Likewise the universality of   
   >>>>>> those rights are not disproven by a government's power to deny them.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Upholding the idea of universal human rights gives the repressed a place   
   >>>>>> to stand and declare their dignity and liberty as they are fighting   
   >>>>>> against that repression.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> It obscures the fact that govt's repress or grant and are responsible   
   >>>>> for that.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> Even if the government wins the battle and   
   >>>>>> kills every one of them, the knowledge that there is a reality which   
   >>>>>> transcends our temporal lives gives hope to the people to continue on.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> The awareness that there are principles which are very real, that show   
   >>>>>> humanity the best way to be, tells us that those ideas will never die   
   >>>>>> and someday will manifest. Because they are true, unchanging, and an   
      
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