From: fedora@fea.st   
      
   On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 13:51:44 -0500, Wilson    
   wrote:   
      
   >On 2/16/2026 1:48 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 13:25:18 -0500, Wilson    
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 2/16/2026 12:20 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 11:55:05 -0500, Wilson    
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 2/16/2026 11:19 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:45:47 -0500, Wilson    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On 2/16/2026 8:53 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 05:02:33 +0000, Creon  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> At Sat, 14 Feb 2026 14:30:45 -0500, Noah Sombrero    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 11:27:02 -0800, Dude    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:52 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2026 09:27:41 -0800, Dude    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:14 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 12:53 AM, dart200 wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/26 9:15 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2026 9:29 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is that governments can grant that they will not   
   impose   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain situations on you, which they still might.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But as far as the universe is concerned.  You have no   
   rights.  There   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no natural law to base social structures on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It there were  natural laws that are inherent, universal, and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inalienable, derived from human nature and  reason rather   
   than granted   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by governments, to be inalienable natural laws, there would   
   be no way   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to not receive them.  Nobody would die, everybody would have   
   liberty,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and loving spouses.  The truth is you have no right to such   
   things,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and far too many around the world don't have them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be natural laws that are inherent, universal, and   
   inalienable, they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have to apply to everybody in the world, not only   
   americans. And   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when suffering people come to america seeking a place where   
   they can   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have such things, we could not send them back where they   
   came from.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a deliberate misstatement of what natural law is all   
   about.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is: There are certain principles that work better than   
   others.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When human law and society aligns with those principles, the   
   systems   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created within that structure perform better, allowing   
   greater human   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flourishing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what worked last century, may not work this century, and will   
   not work   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next century   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       > the "law" can change when as technology unfolds   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       >   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       > #god   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not how universal principles work.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Things like:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't steal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't initiate harm to or murder other people   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't deliberately speak untruth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Take responsibility for your actions   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't envy or promote resentment for what others have   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> It kind of looks like two informants are not smarter than a fifth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> grader. Maybe they think communism is a better system. It's   
   starting to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> look like that because they don't seem to have any cogent   
   arguments for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> a closed society. YMMV.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that's been to school in the US and Europe learned that   
   based   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> on international law and philosophical tradition, humans are   
   considered   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> to have innate, inherent, and inalienable human rights.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Learned.  Right that is how social structures get passed down.    
   And   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> true they must be learned.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> These rights are not granted by governments, but are possessed   
   by every   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> individual from birth simply by virtue of being human.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Unless they are not permitted by governments.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Including rights to life, liberty, and freedom, as established   
   by the UN   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe they need to get   
   some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> smarts and read a history book.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, too bad the un is so toothless.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> So, we are agreed. People have inalienable rights. Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Nope.  But you agree with yourself.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> I agree with a lot of what you say, Noah, but not this.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> The idea that there are universal, inalienable rights is undone as   
   >>>>>>>> soon as somebody disagrees with it.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Some rights are inherently part of a human being -- I use   
   >>>>>>>>> the term "God-given", and perhaps I should star that with the   
   >>>>>>>>> caveat that "God", to me, is mostly "Logos" -- the Logos of   
   >>>>>>>>> Heraclitus, c. 500BCE   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> That idea is part of the attitude of those of us who enjoy such govt   
   >>>>>>>> given rights.  It allows us to not pay attention to those who enjoy no   
   >>>>>>>> such rights.  It, after all, is not the fault of evil govt since they   
   >>>>>>>> have no power to take away such rights, as they obviously do exactly   
   >>>>>>>> that.  So, of course, we have no duty to confront such govts.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> It is strange sometimes to watch the contortions of human thought.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> He used "Logos" to describe the "divine order".   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> The idea of inherent human rights does not depend on whether people   
   >>>>>>> agree or disagree with the principles. Likewise the universality of   
   >>>>>>> those rights are not disproven by a government's power to deny them.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Upholding the idea of universal human rights gives the repressed a   
   place   
   >>>>>>> to stand and declare their dignity and liberty as they are fighting   
   >>>>>>> against that repression.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> It obscures the fact that govt's repress or grant and are responsible   
   >>>>>> for that.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Even if the government wins the battle and   
   >>>>>>> kills every one of them, the knowledge that there is a reality which   
   >>>>>>> transcends our temporal lives gives hope to the people to continue on.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> The awareness that there are principles which are very real, that show   
      
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