From: tsm@fastmail.ca   
      
   Noah Sombrero  wrote:   
   > On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 18:59:29 -0000 (UTC), Tara    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >> On Feb 16, 2026 at 1:45:23?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero"  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 18:39:09 -0000 (UTC), Tara    
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On Feb 16, 2026 at 1:20:14?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero"  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 13:13:23 -0500, Noah Sombrero    
   >>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 17:57:17 -0000 (UTC), Tara    
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Feb 16, 2026 at 12:20:53?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero"    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 11:55:05 -0500, Wilson    
   >>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2026 11:19 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:45:47 -0500, Wilson    
   >>>>>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2026 8:53 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 05:02:33 +0000, Creon    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> At Sat, 14 Feb 2026 14:30:45 -0500, Noah Sombrero    
   fedora@fea.st> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 11:27:02 -0800, Dude    
   wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:52 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2026 09:27:41 -0800, Dude  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:14 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 12:53 AM, dart200 wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/26 9:15 AM, Wilson wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2026 9:29 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is that governments can grant that they will   
   not impose   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain situations on you, which they still might.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But as far as the universe is concerned.  You have no   
   rights.  There   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no natural law to base social structures on.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It there were  natural laws that are inherent,   
   universal, and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inalienable, derived from human nature and  reason   
   rather than granted   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by governments, to be inalienable natural laws, there   
   would be no way   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to not receive them.  Nobody would die, everybody would   
   have liberty,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and loving spouses.  The truth is you have no right to   
   such things,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and far too many around the world don't have them.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be natural laws that are inherent, universal, and   
   inalienable, they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have to apply to everybody in the world, not only   
   americans. And   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when suffering people come to america seeking a place   
   where they can   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have such things, we could not send them back where they   
   came from.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a deliberate misstatement of what natural law is   
   all about.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is: There are certain principles that work better   
   than others.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When human law and society aligns with those principles,   
   the systems   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created within that structure perform better, allowing   
   greater human   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flourishing.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what worked last century, may not work this century, and   
   will not work   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next century   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "law" can change when as technology unfolds   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #god   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not how universal principles work.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Things like:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't steal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't initiate harm to or murder other people   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't deliberately speak untruth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Take responsibility for your actions   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't envy or promote resentment for what others have   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It kind of looks like two informants are not smarter than a   
   fifth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grader. Maybe they think communism is a better system. It's   
   starting to   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look like that because they don't seem to have any cogent   
   arguments for   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a closed society. YMMV.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that's been to school in the US and Europe learned   
   that based   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on international law and philosophical tradition, humans are   
   considered   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have innate, inherent, and inalienable human rights.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Learned.  Right that is how social structures get passed   
   down.  And   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true they must be learned.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These rights are not granted by governments, but are   
   possessed by every   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual from birth simply by virtue of being human.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless they are not permitted by governments.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Including rights to life, liberty, and freedom, as   
   established by the UN   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe they need to   
   get some   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smarts and read a history book.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, too bad the un is so toothless.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, we are agreed. People have inalienable rights. Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.  But you agree with yourself.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with a lot of what you say, Noah, but not this.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> The idea that there are universal, inalienable rights is undone as   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> soon as somebody disagrees with it.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some rights are inherently part of a human being -- I use   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> the term "God-given", and perhaps I should star that with the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> caveat that "God", to me, is mostly "Logos" -- the Logos of   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> Heraclitus, c. 500BCE   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> That idea is part of the attitude of those of us who enjoy such   
   govt   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> given rights.  It allows us to not pay attention to those who   
   enjoy no   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> such rights.  It, after all, is not the fault of evil govt since   
   they   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> have no power to take away such rights, as they obviously do   
   exactly   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> that.  So, of course, we have no duty to confront such govts.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It is strange sometimes to watch the contortions of human thought.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> He used "Logos" to describe the "divine order".   
      
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