From: fedora@fea.st
On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 15:45:07 -0800, Dude wrote:
>On 2/16/2026 10:45 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 18:39:09 -0000 (UTC), Tara
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 16, 2026 at 1:20:14?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero" wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 13:13:23 -0500, Noah Sombrero
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 17:57:17 -0000 (UTC), Tara
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 16, 2026 at 12:20:53?PM EST, "Noah Sombrero"
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 11:55:05 -0500, Wilson
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2026 11:19 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:45:47 -0500, Wilson
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2026 8:53 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 05:02:33 +0000, Creon
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> At Sat, 14 Feb 2026 14:30:45 -0500, Noah Sombrero
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 11:27:02 -0800, Dude
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:52 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2026 09:27:41 -0800, Dude wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 9:14 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2026 12:53 AM, dart200 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/26 9:15 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2026 9:29 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is that governments can grant that they will
not impose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain situations on you, which they still might.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But as far as the universe is concerned. You have no
rights. There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no natural law to base social structures on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It there were natural laws that are inherent, universal,
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inalienable, derived from human nature and reason rather
than granted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by governments, to be inalienable natural laws, there
would be no way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to not receive them. Nobody would die, everybody would
have liberty,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and loving spouses. The truth is you have no right to
such things,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and far too many around the world don't have them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be natural laws that are inherent, universal, and
inalienable, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have to apply to everybody in the world, not only
americans. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when suffering people come to america seeking a place
where they can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have such things, we could not send them back where they
came from.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a deliberate misstatement of what natural law is
all about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is: There are certain principles that work better
than others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When human law and society aligns with those principles,
the systems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created within that structure perform better, allowing
greater human
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flourishing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what worked last century, may not work this century, and
will not work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next century
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "law" can change when as technology unfolds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #god
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not how universal principles work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Things like:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't steal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't initiate harm to or murder other people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't deliberately speak untruth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Take responsibility for your actions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Don't envy or promote resentment for what others have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It kind of looks like two informants are not smarter than a
fifth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grader. Maybe they think communism is a better system. It's
starting to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look like that because they don't seem to have any cogent
arguments for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a closed society. YMMV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that's been to school in the US and Europe learned
that based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on international law and philosophical tradition, humans are
considered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have innate, inherent, and inalienable human rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Learned. Right that is how social structures get passed
down. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true they must be learned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These rights are not granted by governments, but are
possessed by every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual from birth simply by virtue of being human.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless they are not permitted by governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Including rights to life, liberty, and freedom, as
established by the UN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe they need to get
some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smarts and read a history book.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, too bad the un is so toothless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, we are agreed. People have inalienable rights. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. But you agree with yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with a lot of what you say, Noah, but not this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The idea that there are universal, inalienable rights is undone as
>>>>>>>>>>> soon as somebody disagrees with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some rights are inherently part of a human being -- I use
>>>>>>>>>>>> the term "God-given", and perhaps I should star that with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> caveat that "God", to me, is mostly "Logos" -- the Logos of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heraclitus, c. 500BCE
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That idea is part of the attitude of those of us who enjoy such
govt
>>>>>>>>>>> given rights. It allows us to not pay attention to those who
enjoy no
>>>>>>>>>>> such rights. It, after all, is not the fault of evil govt since
they
>>>>>>>>>>> have no power to take away such rights, as they obviously do
exactly
>>>>>>>>>>> that. So, of course, we have no duty to confront such govts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is strange sometimes to watch the contortions of human thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He used "Logos" to describe the "divine order".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The idea of inherent human rights does not depend on whether people
>>>>>>>>>> agree or disagree with the principles. Likewise the universality of
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