XPost: can.talk.guns, alt.guns, alt.rec.guns   
   XPost: talk.politics.guns   
   From: Nope@noway.net   
      
   Leif wrote:   
   > On Sep 20, 8:42 am, Magus  wrote:   
   >> Leif wrote:   
   >>> On Sep 18, 10:23 am, Magus  wrote:   
   >>>> Leif wrote:   
   >>>>> On Sep 17, 3:03 pm, "RSweeney"  wrote:   
   >>>>>> "Leif"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>>> Leif speaking:  "The people" referred to in the 2nd Amendment was the   
   >>>>>>> well regulated  militia.  The militia of 1789 wasn't just a "resource   
   >>>>>>> pool."  It was an organized state entity, made up of men capable of   
   >>>>>>> bearing arms, enrolled in militia companies for training and service.   
   >>>>>> The people referred to in the entire bill of rights is the entire   
   citizenry.   
   >>>>>> Madison could just as easily had used the term "militia" and not people.   
   >>>>>> He didn't.   
   >>>>> Leif speaking:  The word "militia" appears in the Second Amendment.   
   >>>>> The word Madison didn't use but could have is "individuals."   
   >>>>>> The militia of 1789 was "the whole of the people" as George Mason and   
   >>>>>> Patrick Henry (and others) had written and debated.   
   >>>>> Leif speaking:  In 1789 military context, "the people" were those who   
   >>>>> were obligated to militia service under state law.  John Adams   
   >>>>> explains it:   
   >>>>>  "The militia comprehends the whole people. By virtue of the laws of   
   >>>>> the country, every male inhabitant between sixteen and sixty years of   
   >>>>> age, is enrolled in a company, and a regiment of militia completely   
   >>>>> organized with all its officers. He is enjoined to keep always in his   
   >>>>> house, and at his own expense, a firelock in good order, a powder   
   >>>>> horn, a pound of powder, twelve flints, four-and-twenty balls of lead,   
   >>>>> a cartridge box, and a knapsack; so that the whole country is ready to   
   >>>>> march for its own defence upon the first signal of alarm. These   
   >>>>> companies and regiments are obliged to assemble at certain times in   
   >>>>> every year, under the orders of their officers, for the inspection of   
   >>>>> their arms and ammunition, and to perform their exercises and   
   >>>>> manoeuvres." (Appendix to A Defence of the Constitutions of Government   
   >>>>> of the United States of America, John Adams, 1787)   
   >>>> Wrong there Leif; your cite doesn't support your assertion.   
   >>>> Your cite demonstrates the militia is the whole people [every one of   
   >>>> them] and only a subset [male, between sixteen and sixty] is required to   
   >>>> do certain things by law.- Hide quoted text -   
   >>>> - Show quoted text -   
   >>> Leif speaking:  What Adams meant by "The militia comprehends the whole   
   >>> people" obviously was that all classes in the society were required to   
   >>> serve in the militia.   
   >> Obvious to those with an agenda perhaps, however, I suggest that rather   
   >> than try to read meaning into the sentence, let's use a dictionary from   
   >> as near the time it was written as we can and see what the word   
   >> "comprehend" meant then. That way we may get the correct meaning *out*   
   >> of it.   
   >>   
   >> Dr. Johnson's 1755 dictionary of the English language is the reference I   
   >> have that is near to the time so I'll use it. It defines COMPREHEND as   
   >> "To Comprise; to include; to contain in the mind; to understand; to   
   >> conceive".   
   >>   
   >> The first sense listed was "to comprise", Doc Johnson's dictionary   
   >> defines "To COMPRISE" as "to contain; to include".   
   >>   
   >> The second sense listed for COMPREHEND was "to include"; ol' Doc   
   >> Johnson's dictionary defines this one as "to inclose; to shut in; to   
   >> comprise; to comprehend".   
   >>   
   >> Now, again examine Mr. Adams' sentence, "The militia comprehends the   
   >> whole people", and tell us what it means.   
   >>   
   >>> Adams' statement tells us who serves in  militia units:   all males   
   >>> between 16 and 60.  If there are others in the militia that he chooses   
   >>> not to mention, they would have to be females, boys under 16, and men   
   >>> over 60.  We could call that the "unmentioned militia."   
   >> That wouldn't work since he already said "The militia comprehends the   
   >> whole people"--it would be more accurate to call it the "unorganized   
   >> militia". [I know I've heard that term before somewhere...]- Hide quoted   
   text -   
   >>   
   >> - Show quoted text -   
   >   
   > Leif speaking:  Well, since females are not included in the   
   > "unorganized militia," your theory means that Adams will have to   
   > revise his description of the militia only to add boys under 16 and   
   > men over 60.  Do you suppose that he will make the militia start at   
   > birth and end at death?   
   >   
      
   Pure sophistry.   
      
   Can you cite where women are not considered as members of "the people"?   
   Or can you cite where women are specifically excluded from the   
   unorganized militia?   
      
   Adams has been dead for near 200 years, has anything changed since then   
   in who is considered "the people"?   
      
   Even though, Adams' definition of the militia was that it comprehended   
   the whole people, so he still wouldn't have to change that. And the law   
   stating the requirements of who are organized wouldn't need to be   
   changed due to ages or gender either.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)