XPost: can.talk.guns, alt.guns, alt.rec.guns
XPost: talk.politics.guns
From: me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net
"Leif" wrote in message
news:1190789818.807694.246440@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 24, 1:37 pm, "Scout"
> wrote:
>> "Leif" wrote in message
>>
>> news:1190663984.134782.314780@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 24, 1:15 am, "Scout"
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Leif" wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1190610475.683296.272440@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On Sep 23, 7:55 am, "RD (The Sandman)"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Leif wrote
>> >> >> innews:1190409691.547147.53540@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> >> > On Sep 21, 10:42 am, "RD (The Sandman)"
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> Leif wrote
>> >> >> >> innews:1190340183.822207.25630@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> >> >> > On Sep 20, 1:35 am, "Scout"
>> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> "Leif" wrote in message
>>
>> >> >> >> >>news:1190263499.204359.138190@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > On Sep 19, 2:33 pm, "RD (The Sandman)"
>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> Leif wrote
>> >> >> >> >> >> innews:1190083380.898090.109280@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sep 17, 8:21 am, "RD (The Sandman)"
>> >> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Leif wrote
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> innews:1190003663.704286.7890@n39g2000hsh.g
oglegroups.com:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Each application of the term "the people" takes some
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > its meaning from its context. In the Second
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Amendment,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > the context is the well regulated militia. "The
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > people"
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > in that amendment were made up of all those
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > nonexempt
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > men
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > who, under state militia law, were considered
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > capable
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > bearing arms (capable of military service) as a well
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > regulated militia.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> IOW, you feel that anyone over the age of 45 has to
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> turn
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> their guns since they have no right to have them?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Leif speaking: Of course I don't feel that "anyone over
>> >> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> >> > age of 45 should have to turn in their guns," if they
>> >> >> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> >> >> > their guns in compliance with all laws. But the Second
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Amendment is simply not involved, unless possession of
>> >> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> >> > guns is in some way related to militia service.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Second Amendment and RKBA are two separate issues.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > Leif speaking: I agree. The Second Amendment is about the
>> >> >> >> >> > right of the people as a militia
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Sorry, I seem to have missed that "as a miliita" modifier.
>> >> >> >> >> Where
>> >> >> >> >> exactly in the 2nd can I find it and by what process of
>> >> >> >> >> grammar
>> >> >> >> >> does it become a modifier of "the people"?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> I mean you keep asserting this modifier is attached to the
>> >> >> >> >> people,
>> >> >> >> >> but somehow you never seem able to point out where it is in
>> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> sentence or by what process under the Standard Rules of
>> >> >> >> >> English
>> >> >> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> >> modifies the noun "people".
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > to keep and bear arms for the security of a
>> >> >> >> >> > free state. An individual right to keep and bear arms is
>> >> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> >> > the personal use of guns.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Yep, but again I see nothing that declares the right to keep
>> >> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> >> bear arms shall only be protected for one purpose. Again can
>> >> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> >> show me where in the 2nd it states that the right to keep and
>> >> >> >> >> bear
>> >> >> >> >> arms shall not be infringed only for the purpose of providing
>> >> >> >> >> security for a free state, and by what process "security of a
>> >> >> >> >> free
>> >> >> >> >> state" becomes attached to "shall not be infringed"?- Hide
>> >> >> >> >> quoted
>> >> >> >> >> text -
>>
>> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> >> >> > Leif speaking: The entire first half of the Second Amendment
>> >> >> >> > tells
>> >> >> >> > us that the amendment is about the importance of a well
>> >> >> >> > regulated
>> >> >> >> > militia in the security of a free state. If the amendment had
>> >> >> >> > been
>> >> >> >> > about individual gun use, Madison would have said so. Here's
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > rule from Judge Story that covers the importance of preambles:
>>
>> >> >> >> > "It is an admitted maxim in the ordinary course of the
>> >> >> >> > administration of justice, that the preamble of a statute is a
>> >> >> >> > key
>> >> >> >> > to open the mind of the makers, as to the mischiefs, which are
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > be remedied, and the objects, which are to be accomplished by
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > provisions of the statute." (Paragraph 459, Commentaries on
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > Constitution of the United States, Joseph Story, 1833)
>>
>> >> >> >> IOW, to set the stage or goal that the following statement(s)
>> >> >> >> were
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> address. Yes, the 2A was about the arming of the state militias
>> >> >> >> rather than to rely on the feds in ArtI(8)(16). It did so by
>> >> >> >> protecting the right of the people to keep and bear arms (as a
>> >> >> >> resource pool required by the state) so that the state militias
>> >> >> >> would
>> >> >> >> not be disarmed by neglect from the central government.
>>
>> >> >> > Leif speaking: What's the evidence in support of your assertion
>> >> >> > about the "resource pool"?
>>
>> >> >> That is simply how I refer to it to keep it in modern language.
>> >> >> The
>> >> >> point is that the state militias were drawn from the citizenry and
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> most cases were expected to bring their own arms not ones supplied
>> >> >> by
>> >> >> Art
>> >> >> I.
>>
>> >> > Leif speaking: In everything I find from the time of the Framers,
>> >> > the
[continued in next message]
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