XPost: alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy
From: shell-stamford@cox.net
"A Watcher" wrote in message
news:OAbok.268624$x66.142789@newsfe25.ams2...
>
> "Chuck Stamford" wrote in message
> news:_NInk.16691$KZ.161@newsfe03.iad...
>>
>> "A Watcher" wrote in message
>> news:tuxnk.17160$tc1.11590@newsfe24.ams2...
>>>
>>> "Chuck Stamford" wrote in message
>
>>> news:DX4nk.5544$i15.413@newsfe01.iad...
>>>>
>>>> "A Watcher" wrote in message
>>>> news:4E0nk.3228$Lt6.2866@newsfe17.ams2...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chuck Stamford" wrote in message
>>>>> news:hvUmk.5419$i15.535@newsfe01.iad...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A Watcher" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:iLSmk.51$Lt6.4@newsfe17.ams2...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Chuck Stamford" wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:3VRmk.15178$LF2.509@newsfe09.iad...
>>>>>>>> I wasnt attacking you for being in the U.S. army, I was attacking
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> U.S. Army, the fact that you served is great, I have family who
>>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>>> in both the German and Amerikan militarys, my family can trace its
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>> ilitary lineage back to a German Grenadier in WW1, then a German
>>>>>>>> Soldier in WW2, then an Amerikan soldier in Korea, then an Amerikan
>>>>>>>> Private in Iraq, An Amerikan Colonel in Afganistan and a German
>>>>>>>> Major
>>>>>>>> in Afganistan. So, yes, very military family and I intend to
>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>>> it by Joining the Bundeswehr...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you aware that both the Germans and America/British Christians
>>>>>>> ended up killing each other being on opposite sides during the last
>>>>>>> two World Wars, both thanking God for their victories over the
>>>>>>> enemy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you aware that I didn't write what you've preserved above?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes, I'm fully aware that there were undoubtedly Christians on
>>>>>> both sides of WWII. I'm confident that for any war you care to
>>>>>> mention, there's a very good possibility that one Christian faced
>>>>>> another in battle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's your point?
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean you do not find it disturbing and quite inappropriate for
>>>>> Christ's brethren to fight and kill each other?
>>>>
>>>> Christ's "brethern" were enjoined by their God and Lord to obey the
>>>> legitimate authorities over them, as all authority comes ultimately
>>>> from Him.
>>>
>>> Yes, except when those authorities countermand what God has commanded of
>>> His Children in obedience to Him.
>>> Just as the Apostles did when told to stop preaching the Gospel in
>>> Jerusalem.
>>> " 26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without
>>> violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
>>> 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and
>>> the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you
>>> that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled
>>> Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon
>>> us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to
>>> obey God rather than men." Acts 5:26-29 (KJV)
>>
>> I would think that all went without saying. Clearly the truth of the
>> ultimate source of authority on earth doesn't trump the moral content of
>> its exercise. The teaching is that we are to give the benefit of any
>> doubt to the authority over us. Where there is any question at all about
>> the immorality or amorality of an exercise of legitimate authority over
>> us, we are to obey it.
>>
>> In the above example, Peter is faced with a *direct* contradiction in
>> that Jesus had straightly (and painfull - See John 21:15-17) commanded
>> Peter to preach the Gospel, and he was now standing in front of a
>> legitimate authority over him telling him not to. Thus, we have an A, ~A
>> relationship between God's command to Peter and the authority's command
>> to Peter. Would that it were this cut and dried for most of us most of
>> the time. Unfortunately it's not. We don't have the inspired author of
>> Acts sifting through all the facts for us, leaving in only those that are
>> relevant, and we are not often faced with situations in which an
>> authority clearly and directly contradicts a command God has given to
>> us...especially not in America, where the entire concept of government
>> grew out of the set of Christian values.
>
> These arguments just will not wash as we have Christ's explicit and clear
> commands about not killing or hating enemies, but to LOVE them
> irrespective, even to offer the other side of our face to be hit....after
> they have struck us.
> How ultra passive is that?
> Not a HINT of allowing any retaliation.
Who's suggesting retaliation as the motive for killing anyone? I"m not.
But what about protection as one's motive, or simply obeying the authority
over one on the basis that that authority's reason for ordering a killing
isn't known for a certainly, and one can't rule out protection as their
reason.
>
>>> And Christ has forbidden his brethren to commit personal violence
>>> including the killing of other human beings even if their own personal
>>> lives are at risk.
>
>>> "36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we
>>> are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
>>> Romans 8:35-36 (KJV)
>>
>> This isn't a good passage for attempting to support your position,
>
> It's supports the position that we are not to save our lives by fighting
> our way out of a possible life-threatening scenario by either defending or
> fighting and killing others.
It doesn't support anything at all so long as you won't pit it against any
opposing view, which is all you've done in this "response".
>
>> which is, I take it, that no Christian may ever kill another Christian
>> for any reason.
>
> Which is Christ's teaching, for even to hate Christ's brethren is to
> become a murderer, to actually kill them is diabolical, and that is what
> occurred during the last world wars.
Just tell me how it is that God, and the men God ordered to kill other men,
are not "diabolical". That's all I really need you to do, and I'll listen
to anything else you have to say here. But until you explain to me how God
and those men doing God's will manage not to be "diabolical" as they kill by
the tens of thousands, literally drench the ground in blood, I'm not really
interested in your pov, as I find it self-refuting.
[continued in next message]
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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