3310a009   
   XPost: alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.religion.christian.baptist,   
   alt.religion.christian.biblestudy   
   From: shell-stamford@cox.net   
      
   "alexander"  wrote in message   
   news:922855e0-3c11-4011-93b0-6ebebec1ce68@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...   
   On Aug 12, 9:11 am, "A Watcher"  wrote:   
   > "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   >   
   > news:_NInk.16691$KZ.161@newsfe03.iad...   
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   >   
   > > "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   > >news:tuxnk.17160$tc1.11590@newsfe24.ams2...   
   >   
   > >> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >>news:DX4nk.5544$i15.413@newsfe01.iad...   
   >   
   > >>> "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   > >>>news:4E0nk.3228$Lt6.2866@newsfe17.ams2...   
   >   
   > >>>> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>news:hvUmk.5419$i15.535@newsfe01.iad...   
   >   
   > >>>>> "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>>news:iLSmk.51$Lt6.4@newsfe17.ams2...   
   >   
   > >>>>>> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>>>news:3VRmk.15178$LF2.509@newsfe09.iad...   
   > >>>>>>> I wasnt attacking you for being in the U.S. army, I was attacking   
   > >>>>>>> the   
   > >>>>>>> U.S. Army, the fact that you served is great, I have family who   
   > >>>>>>> serve   
   > >>>>>>> in both the German and Amerikan militarys, my family can trace its   
   > >>>>>>> m   
   > >>>>>>> ilitary lineage back to a German Grenadier in WW1, then a German   
   > >>>>>>> Soldier in WW2, then an Amerikan soldier in Korea, then an   
   > >>>>>>> Amerikan   
   > >>>>>>> Private in Iraq, An Amerikan Colonel in Afganistan and a German   
   > >>>>>>> Major   
   > >>>>>>> in Afganistan. So, yes, very military family and I intend to   
   > >>>>>>> continue   
   > >>>>>>> it by Joining the Bundeswehr...   
   >   
   > >>>>>> Are you aware that both the Germans and America/British Christians   
   > >>>>>> ended up killing each other being on opposite sides during the last   
   > >>>>>> two World Wars, both thanking God for their victories over the   
   > >>>>>> enemy?   
   >   
   > >>>>> Are you aware that I didn't write what you've preserved above?   
   >   
   > >>>>> And yes, I'm fully aware that there were undoubtedly Christians on   
   > >>>>> both sides of WWII. I'm confident that for any war you care to   
   > >>>>> mention, there's a very good possibility that one Christian faced   
   > >>>>> another in battle.   
   >   
   > >>>>> What's your point?   
   >   
   > >>>> You mean you do not find it disturbing and quite inappropriate for   
   > >>>> Christ's brethren to fight and kill each other?   
   >   
   > >>> Christ's "brethern" were enjoined by their God and Lord to obey the   
   > >>> legitimate authorities over them, as all authority comes ultimately   
   > >>> from   
   > >>> Him.   
   >   
   > >> Yes, except when those authorities countermand what God has commanded   
   > >> of   
   > >> His Children in obedience to Him.   
   > >> Just as the Apostles did when told to stop preaching the Gospel in   
   > >> Jerusalem.   
   > >> " 26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without   
   > >> violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been   
   > >> stoned.   
   > >> 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council:   
   > >> and   
   > >> the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you   
   > >> that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled   
   > >> Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon   
   > >> us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to   
   > >> obey God rather than men." Acts 5:26-29 (KJV)   
   >   
   > > I would think that all went without saying. Clearly the truth of the   
   > > ultimate source of authority on earth doesn't trump the moral content of   
   > > its exercise. The teaching is that we are to give the benefit of any   
   > > doubt to the authority over us. Where there is any question at all about   
   > > the immorality or amorality of an exercise of legitimate authority over   
   > > us, we are to obey it.   
   >   
   > > In the above example, Peter is faced with a *direct* contradiction in   
   > > that   
   > > Jesus had straightly (and painfull - See John 21:15-17) commanded Peter   
   > > to   
   > > preach the Gospel, and he was now standing in front of a legitimate   
   > > authority over him telling him not to. Thus, we have an A, ~A   
   > > relationship between God's command to Peter and the authority's command   
   > > to   
   > > Peter. Would that it were this cut and dried for most of us most of the   
   > > time. Unfortunately it's not. We don't have the inspired author of Acts   
   > > sifting through all the facts for us, leaving in only those that are   
   > > relevant, and we are not often faced with situations in which an   
   > > authority   
   > > clearly and directly contradicts a command God has given to   
   > > us...especially not in America, where the entire concept of government   
   > > grew out of the set of Christian values.   
   >   
   > These arguments just will not wash as we have Christ's explicit and clear   
   > commands about not killing or hating enemies, but to LOVE them   
   > irrespective,   
   > even to offer the other side of our face to be hit....after they have   
   > struck   
   > us.   
   > How ultra passive is that?   
   > Not a HINT of allowing any retaliation.   
   >   
   > >> And Christ has forbidden his brethren to commit personal violence   
   > >> including the killing of other human beings even if their own personal   
   > >> lives are at risk.   
   > >> "36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we   
   > >> are   
   > >> accounted as sheep for the slaughter."   
   > >> Romans 8:35-36 (KJV)   
   >   
   > > This isn't a good passage for attempting to support your position,   
   >   
   > It's supports the position that we are not to save our lives by fighting   
   > our   
   > way out of a possible life-threatening scenario by either defending or   
   > fighting and killing others.   
   >   
   > > which is, I take it, that no Christian may ever kill another Christian   
   > > for   
   > > any reason.   
   >   
   > Which is Christ's teaching, for even to hate Christ's brethren is to   
   > become   
   > a murderer, to actually kill them is diabolical, and that is what occurred   
   > during the last world wars. If they had hearkened to Christ and loved   
   > their   
   > enemies they would have not only saved their own lives but would have not   
   > killed any brothers and sisters of Christ.   
   > Now when they rise to judgment they will be judged as murderers and   
   > killers,   
   > completely disobedient to what Christ had commanded them.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > >> "51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his   
   > >> hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's,   
   > >> and   
   > >> smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword   
   > >> into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the   
   > >> sword." Matt 26:51-52 (KJV)   
   >   
      
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