XPost: alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.religion.christian.baptist,   
   alt.religion.christian.biblestudy   
   From: shell-stamford@cox.net   
      
   "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   news:mhlpk.2607$Ft5.1124@newsfe29.ams2...   
   >   
   > "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > news:jEnok.20358$KZ.18650@newsfe03.iad...   
   >>   
   >> "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   >> news:OAbok.268624$x66.142789@newsfe25.ams2...   
   >>>   
   >>> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   >>> news:_NInk.16691$KZ.161@newsfe03.iad...   
   >>> Which is Christ's teaching, for even to hate Christ's brethren is to   
   >>> become a murderer, to actually kill them is diabolical, and that is what   
   >>> occurred during the last world wars.   
   >>   
   >> Just tell me how it is that God, and the men God ordered to kill other   
   >> men, are not "diabolical".  That's all I really need you to do, and I'll   
   >> listen to anything else you have to say here.   
   >   
   > Ok.   
   > It is not 'diabolical' if God who is the Master of all Creation demands   
   > the   
   > death of some-one who He has created and given life to. One the other hand   
   > it is 'diabolical' and a sin if He gives the command NOT to kill and we go   
   > ahead and defy Him and to save our lives, or the lives of our family, or a   
   > possible invasion of the country we live in.   
      
   But you have to cite the 10 commandments, specifically the sixth, to show me   
   where God commands not to kill, and yet we find God ORDERING Saul to go and   
   kill every man, woman, and child of the Amalekites some 500 years AFTER HE   
   supposedly commanded men not to kill.   
      
   How do you account for the obvious contradiction on your interrpretation of   
   the sixth commandment?  And remember, it's crucial to your position that you   
   be able to do this, for no where do we find Jesus repudiating the sixth   
   commandment, except to explain that it extends not just to the act of   
   murder, but to its motivation as well, which is, as He explains, the   
   self-gratification.one gets from satisfying their anger.   
      
   >   
   > We must trust Him to take care of us but sometimes God allows hurt and   
   > harm   
   > or the threat of it, to test our faith and compliance to His commands, to   
   > see if we really do love Him more then our own self, wives, and families   
   > or   
   > the country we live in.   
      
   I'm sorry, but I just don't see it this way.  I see the fact that God made   
   some teachers, some preachers, some this or that, and that along with those   
   titles comes the responsiblity to minister to and protect from evil and harm   
   those whom God has given us, and to do this to the best of our abilities,   
   trusting in Him to guide us and strengthen us.   
      
   God has commanded we not murder one another.  He has also commanded us to   
   love one another.  What love sits by and lets the murderer murder the   
   beloved?  Jesus is our example here, is He not?  Did He just sit up in   
   heaven saying to the Father how much he loved us, but so sorry, can't   
   actually DO anything about the fact we were being slain day in and day out   
   by the wiles of Satan?  No!  He came and fought AGAINST Satan, and defeated   
   Him, and will eventually KILL him forever and ever in the lake of fire!   
      
   God has placed within your charge certain people.  These are the people in   
   your life for whom He has placed His love in your heart for them.  God kills   
   His enemies, we know this.  You, if you are to be His tool, must BE His   
   tool, without trying to be more moral than He is!  You need not go out on a   
   witch hunt, or resort to some sort of nulear option at the first sign of   
   danger, but you are less than loving with the love of God if you're not   
   willing to lay down your life to protect those you and God love.  And that   
   means one HECK of a lot more than making some pathetic, useless gesture that   
   after you're dead doesn't even delay what happens next to those you love.   
      
   > THINK of the faithful Christians who were thrown to the Lions and torn   
   > apart   
   > sooner then deny Christ.   
      
   I am.  I understand being a martyr for the faith.  But there you're talking   
   about laying down your life as a witness for the Gospel.  What "witness" is   
   given in standing by and watching while some man rapes your wife, or   
   sodomizes your daughter, or sells your son into sexual slavery, or kills   
   your mother and father?  What does that say to the world?  That you loved   
   them?  Or that you loved their attacker more than them?   
      
   You see, don't you, the problem here.  You just can't quite get a handle on   
   how to keep it from sliding down some "slippery slope" into and excuse for   
   indiscriminant killing by Christians, where we're back burning people at the   
   stake, right?  Well, for the mature Christian, it doesn't end up there.  It   
   ends up taking into account ALL that God has to say on sin and death and   
   love and life, and combining it into a way to live one's life walking in   
   real love - ever ready to lay it down to protect those God loves, and ever   
   ready to recieve it back from God through faith in Him.   
      
   >   
   > Christ has given the commanded that his brethren must NOT to kill, and   
   > they   
   > won't, even if they have to sacrifice their lives to be obedient.   
   > Thus anyone who does kill, it is murder [an unlawful killing] before God,   
   > as   
   > Christ has forbidden to kill other humans during this Christian era.   
      
   That's simply your understanding of the issue, and it's poorly grounded by   
   any plausible understanding of Scripture, Old or New Testament.  I will   
   grant you, though, that you are certainly not alone in holding it.  There   
   are many pacifist sects in nominal Christianity.  Evidently you belong to   
   one of them.   
      
   >   
   >> But until you explain to me how God and those men doing God's will manage   
   >> not to be "diabolical" as they kill by the tens of thousands, literally   
   >> drench the ground in blood,   
   >   
   > See explanation above.   
      
   Your "explanation above" seems to proceed more by what it doesn't take into   
   account in Scripture than what it does, which, at least to me, means it's a   
   poor explanation.   
      
   >   
   >> I'm not really interested in your pov, as I find it self-refuting.   
   >   
   > It is only because you have failed to understand the awesome Supremacy of   
   > Almighty God's power both "To kill and make alive"   
   > "39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill,   
   > and   
   > I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver   
   > out   
   > of my hand." Deut 32:39 (KJV)   
      
   I would suggest you satisfy yourself with holding onto what you believe to   
   be true for your own reasons, and not stretch past knowledge available to   
   you and start telling me mine for my beliefs.  I hold the belief the   
   Christian is duty bound to kill the enemies who would kill the beloved of   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)