46528778   
   XPost: alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.religion.christian.baptist,   
   alt.religion.christian.biblestudy   
   From: shell-stamford@cox.net   
      
   "James R"  wrote in message   
   news:2877b37e-ea19-411b-a3d3-31425cf0b730@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...   
   On Aug 16, 4:16 pm, "Chuck Stamford"  wrote:   
   > "Jude Alexander"  wrote in   
   > messagenews:c9ppk.10926$kh2.559@bignews3.bellsouth.net...   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > > "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >news:2_opk.32819$QX3.8628@newsfe02.iad...   
   >   
   > >> "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   > >>news:mhlpk.2607$Ft5.1124@newsfe29.ams2...   
   >   
   > >>> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >>>news:jEnok.20358$KZ.18650@newsfe03.iad...   
   >   
   > >>>> "A Watcher"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>news:OAbok.268624$x66.142789@newsfe25.ams2...   
   >   
   > >>>>> "Chuck Stamford"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>>news:_NInk.16691$KZ.161@newsfe03.iad...   
   > >>>>> Which is Christ's teaching, for even to hate Christ's brethren is to   
   > >>>>> become a murderer, to actually kill them is diabolical, and that is   
   > >>>>> what occurred during the last world wars.   
   >   
   > >>>> Just tell me how it is that God, and the men God ordered to kill   
   > >>>> other   
   > >>>> men, are not "diabolical". That's all I really need you to do, and   
   > >>>> I'll listen to anything else you have to say here.   
   >   
   > >>> Ok.   
   > >>> It is not 'diabolical' if God who is the Master of all Creation   
   > >>> demands   
   > >>> the   
   > >>> death of some-one who He has created and given life to. One the other   
   > >>> hand   
   > >>> it is 'diabolical' and a sin if He gives the command NOT to kill and   
   > >>> we   
   > >>> go   
   > >>> ahead and defy Him and to save our lives, or the lives of our family,   
   > >>> or   
   > >>> a   
   > >>> possible invasion of the country we live in.   
   >   
   > >> But you have to cite the 10 commandments, specifically the sixth, to   
   > >> show   
   > >> me where God commands not to kill, and yet we find God ORDERING Saul to   
   > >> go and kill every man, woman, and child of the Amalekites some 500   
   > >> years   
   > >> AFTER HE supposedly commanded men not to kill.   
   >   
   > >> How do you account for the obvious contradiction on your   
   > >> interrpretation   
   > >> of the sixth commandment? And remember, it's crucial to your position   
   > >> that you be able to do this, for no where do we find Jesus repudiating   
   > >> the sixth commandment, except to explain that it extends not just to   
   > >> the   
   > >> act of murder, but to its motivation as well, which is, as He explains,   
   > >> the self-gratification.one gets from satisfying their anger.   
   >   
   > > That you use the above truth from the bible as showing logic is BEYOND   
   > > ME!!!! lol   
   >   
   > > Yeah, God tells people to NOT murder and yet he THEN tells them to kill   
   > > this one and that and, oh wait, and keep the virgins for themselves   
   > > (after   
   > > killing all the virgin's kin!). If you can't see that ONLY a mentally   
   > > bound individuals can use what you just used as a reasonable explanation   
   > > of anything IS truly beyond me to understand and I was once a Fundie   
   > > myself!!!   
   >   
   > Everybody dies, and every death passes through the will of God. Therefore,   
   > if causing or allowing death is immoral, than God is immoral. Likewise,   
   > all   
   > evil in the world passess through the will of God before it ever occurs in   
   > reality. If allowing or using evil is immoral, then God is immoral.   
      
   James:   
      
   Are you saying that every death and the method and timing of the death   
   is the will of God?   
      
   Chuck:   
      
   I hold that "the will of God" has two facets to it, what God wants, and what   
   God allows to get what He wants.  Death is what God allows.  However,   
   because God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good, it follows that   
   God allows killing because God cannot possibly avoid it and acheive some   
   greater good that God wants to acheive, such has having a relationship of   
   love with mankind made in His image and likeness.  Therefore it follows that   
   there *are* greater goods that can only be realized by killing human beings.   
      
   This premise is what justifies God in cursing Adam, and through Adam, all of   
   us to death.  This premise is what justifies God in destroying Sodom and   
   Gomorrah, in drowning Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea, in ordering Joshua to   
   exterminate every Canaanite tribe living in the Promised Land, etc.  All   
   these killings were so that a greater good could be realized.  It doesn't   
   even have to be the case this greater good *was* realized (Joshua and the   
   Israelites obviously didn't exterminate all the Canaanite tribes in the   
   Promised Land, as God commanded, and the OT tells us it was the idolatry of   
   the surviving tribes that eventually spread to Israel, causing God's wrath   
   to come upon them), but only that killing is the only way to make that   
   greater good *possible*.   
      
      
   >   
   > Anyone who says allowing evil or causing or allowing death (killing) is   
   > immoral sets themselves above God. No one who does not understand the   
   > nature of sin and death can understand how it is that love can kill with   
   > complete justification, and that it is the *justification* that determines   
   > the moral status of killing, and *not* the act itself. God is perfectly   
   > good killing every human being He ever creates, PROVING it is not the act   
   > itself that is evil.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)