Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"
|    alt.conspiracy.princess-diana    |    What really happened to Lady Di...    |    10,071 messages    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
|    Message 8,438 of 10,071    |
|    oO to All    |
|    Secret Wars, Secret Laws, Secret Warrant    |
|    17 Dec 05 17:13:28    |
      XPost: uk.politics.misc, alt.politics.british, alt.conspiracy       XPost: alt.conspiracy.new-world-order, alt.america, alt.conspira       y.america-at-war       XPost: us.politics       From: oO@oO.com              Secret Wars, Secret Laws, Secret Warrants, Secret Courts, & Secret Prisons:       The New America?              "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary       Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Benjamin Franklin,       Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755              It seems that, since 9/11, the Bush Administration has created laws and/or       regulations to which the government says they may subject you, which at the       same time they don't need to prove to you the existence of, or even show to       the courts. This has come to light in the case of Gilmore v. Gonzalez       (formerly, Gilmore v. Ashcroft), where the Government refused to show: an       airline passenger, his defense attorney, or even a trial court, the       regulation that required him to show identification. In other words, you       could be held responsible for violating a secret law or regulation.              Secret laws..? 'How do I know if I might break one?' 'Oh, the police or       other authorities tell me that there is such a law.' When I ask to see it,       they say, "nope, it's secret"... If the government refuses to admit that a       law exists, but reminds someone of some other non-secret public law, in a       way or at a time that they know will likely lead that person to take actions       that violate a secret law, that person is unaware of, how does one defend       oneself? If the police lie to me during interrogation, as the Supreme Court       says they may (see the section: Deceiving the Suspect), and cites a phony       secret law to get me to confess to what I may believe is a lesser crime than       is some secret law they say exists, what does that say about justice?              There goes the concept of notice (one example is the requirement of       publishing a law before holding people to it) the courts have developed from       the Fifth Amendment's due process clause and from the Fourth Amendment's       implicit expectations of due process.. What happens if I violate a secret       law that no-one could have known about UNTIL they actually violated it, if       no officer told them they were about to violate it, for example?              Can you say "Spanish Inquisition?" (I only WISH this were simply a Monty       Python skit instead of reality)              In the post 9/11 world, the US Government has created: secret warrants,       secret subpoenas, secret courts & secret trials (reminiscent of the Star       Chamber abolished by England in 1641), and secret jails. They've also tried       to prevent access to attorneys to people that they hold prisoner (See also:       US asks Judge to Deny Suspect Access to Lawyer).              The government has not won all these cases (See also: Judge tosses Detroit       terror cases), so much for the idea that they would only use these       mechanisms, procedures, and institutions against the assuredly guilty and       the most dangerous of criminals. People have been held for years and been       apologized to by judges in cases where supposed terrorists were found       innocent. Now we need secret laws too? Is this justice? When do we stop       being a truly democratic nation?              Does our Constitution no longer mean anything? Or is it simply what some       Republican Congresspeople reportedly heard George W. Bush call it recently?       "Simply a goddamn piece of paper?" (See also: Where There's Smoke... ).              The most basic provision of any JUST and civilized society is that the       members of that society must be able to KNOW what the rules are and verify       them. When the laws are secret, how does one do that? It sounds like "Double       Secret Probation" from Animal House, or, on a more sinister note, The Trial       by Franz Kafka.              Let me be clear, I have less problems than does Mr. Gilmore with the       government making someone show ID to allow them to fly on an airliner. I       find that a reasonable request given security concerns. I DO, though, have a       HUGE problem with ANY government saying they have secret regulations that       mandate something that the public is expected to adhere to, and that they       then tell the very same public that they, for whatever reason, cannot be       allowed to even see those regulations. In my mind, there is no logical       reason not to simply establish a public rule/law to accomplish the goal of       requiring one to show identification to take a commercial airline flight.       That is, of course, unless one is PURPOSELY trying to set a precedent       allowing the government to establish secret laws for the violation of which       a citizen might: lose some right to liberty/property, be detained, fined,       arrested, or even jailed. That's a VERY scary prospect.              Thomas Jefferson told us that: "Free government is founded in jealousy, not       confidence. It is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited       constitutions, to bind those we are obliged to trust with power.... In       questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but       bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."              As recognized by the Founding Fathers, in the Sixth Amendment, a public       system of justice is one of the most axiomatic guarantees of our rights and       freedoms. Limitations on secretive "justice" are a Constitutional constraint       intended to ensure that government itself is just. A secret system of       justice is simply unjust and inconsistent with any conceptualization of a       free society.              But, perhaps the words of Jefferson are considered too distant, from a       simpler time, and out of date? Therefore, I ask you to also consider the       words of a more recent President, speaking amidst the dangers of the Cold       War, who said: "You and I are told we must choose between a left or right,       but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an       up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom       consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism.       Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would       sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path... ..The       American people recognize that it is the denial of human rights, not their       advocacy, that is the source of world tension." A Time for Choosing, Ronald       Reagan              Have we already forsaken and forgotten all we once believed in and stood       for? Have we covered and shuttered the beacon that once shone from this       lighthouse for liberty and the rights of all humankind?              Yes, we are engaged in a war of sorts with those who would destroy the       societies we cherish, but have there not always been those who would do so?       Yes, we are right and just to defend our societies, but we must also temper       that defense with the knowledge that, as Thomas Paine put it: "The greatest       tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes."              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
(c) 1994, bbs@darkrealms.ca