From: Here@my.place   
      
   On 11 Dec 2003 19:36:54 -0800, sincere_one2001ca@yahoo.com (Gadfly)   
   wrote:   
      
      
   >---> But I've read quite a few NDE's where the experiencer is suddenly   
   >informed:  "There's been a mistake...you've got to return"  (Read:   
   >"There's been a bit of a screw up....")  Seems pretty clear to me.   
   >Granted, maybe the NDE made a great difference in the person's   
   >life...even if it was a screw up. If it wasn't a screw up..."GOD"   
   >would simply be informing the individual that they needed this   
   >experience.   
   >   
   >   
      
   Informed by who?  I haven't read any NDE's in which someone claims   
   that God spoke to them directly.  It's normally communication with the   
   being of white light that rarely identifies him/herself.  Some call   
   him Jesus, Buddha, Moses, and etc...   Some claim "it's our own higher   
   self" which was always at a state of Oneness with God.  But the point   
   is that "screwed up" is a subjective judgement statement of the being   
   making the statement.   
      
   If everything were "fixed"so that there could be no "screw ups", then   
   we would be predestined.  Personally, I don't believe in   
   predestination; I believe in interaction of all things with all things   
   at a level that have we have not begun to comprehend.   
      
   >--->  It may very well be a deep, profound experience.  So is a   
   >virtual reality experience...but we all know that although the virtual   
   >reality experience feels very real...it is not genuine.  And your   
   >comment "...that's all you really have anyway"....merely affirms what   
   >I said:  You never know.   
   >   
      
   I agree, but consider that by the same logic everything you experience   
   could be considered an illusion.  In fact, many mystics say that   
   everything is an illusion and the only thing with any intrinsic   
   reality is awareness or consciousness itself.  And that is beyond mind   
   or "no mind".   
      
   >--->  And your definition of "miracle" is....?   
      
   In the sense that I used the word miracle, I meant that it is   
   something of high value and amazing in itself.  The point was that we   
   tend to create our own reality by making these type of subjective   
   judgements.  We all filter the information we receive from our senses,   
   and we tend to filter it in a way that supports our current subjective   
   viewpoint.   
      
   We also may interact with an object just by observing the object, so   
   that we actually change the object just by the observation.  It   
   appears that this is being discovered in quantum physics.   
      
   >---->  I could just as well argue that the illusion may be that I am   
   >one with an ultimate reality.  "Am I Lao Tzu dreaming that I am a   
   >butterfly...or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am Lao Tzu?"   
      
   It is beyond words, description, or even mind.  It is pure   
   consciousness from which mind arises.  It is the awareness that hears   
   your thoughts.  It is the pure "I Am".  Anything beyond that is   
   subjective experience and is subject to illusions.  However, if it is   
   illusion, then it is shared illusion since it is a very common   
   experience.  In addition, if it were illusion, then the illusion seems   
   to point us to that which is beyond illusion.  The true unchanging   
   Self that is beyond mind or thought.  This is what I referred to as   
   ultimate reality.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)