From: ssake@goldthread.com   
      
   The entire issue is easily resolved, but it requires the upside down flip   
   you describe. The physical body is not the only body we have or can function   
   through. The physical body is like a mould or imprint of what's called the   
   subtle body. The subtle body is in turn an imprint or mould of the mental   
   body, and all are reflections of the true spiritual inner Self. Therefore   
   each lower body follows the same patterns as its respective higher one, and   
   there is two-way communication, the bodies influence each other. The state   
   of the physical body "suggests" emotional and mental states. However, with a   
   very disciplined mind, the mind does have *have* to accept those   
   suggestions. You can observe this yourself--you may not have the   
   self-discipline to prevent your physical body from following the suggestion,   
   but you can observe the process if you pay attention. I have been able to   
   stop severe night leg cramps with sheer will-power, even right in the middle   
   of them, by saying to my leg, "You WILL stop now!" In the drug state, also,   
   when I used to take drugs 30 years ago, I could clearly see that my body was   
   *suggesting* a certain state to my mind. It worked both ways. Sometimes I   
   accepted the suggestion and experienced a certain mental state, or sometimes   
   if I wasn't in the right mood, I was unable to accept the suggestion and   
   didn't feel the same feelings as I had on other experiences. (It confused me   
   when I still believed the subjective experience was actually *caused* by the   
   drug--it should happen every single time, right?) Beyond that, later on I   
   have had the same experience (only cleaner) without the drugs, and that,   
   transferred by a yogi while singing a devotional song in his presence. I   
   guarantee, it was not something that my own brain chemistry could have   
   created. It was instantaneous, like a veil had been lifted and that layer   
   has always been there, "just a step away" was my insight about it--and it   
   lasted for about 4-5 hours. I had given up drugs several months previously.   
   I later came to understand this was one of the lowest levels of "samadhi",   
   not all that significant in and of itself, but the point is, no drugs were   
   necessary, and it wasn't dependent on brain chemistry at all.   
      
   Furthermore, the subtle body can function without the physical body (and in   
   fact does so for everybody, every night during sleep).   
      
   Here's the irony--each of these materialistic scientists who tries to   
   explain consciousness in terms of brain physiology, are leaving their   
   physical body and experiencing mental impressions of their physical life   
   through the medium of their subtle body, every night while they are   
   sleeping, and then they wake up not remembering it and go back to their   
   materialistic theories! It's kind of amusing. Really-speaking there's   
   nothing amiss, they just have to push that idea as far as they can to see   
   where it will take them, and that's what life's about.   
      
   The fact that credible people have seen things during an NDE beyond what   
   they could know with their physical senses, by itself means the   
   materialistic paradigm is inadequate. As you suggest, the only response   
   people who cling to the materialistic paradigm can have is to simply deny   
   the evidence, unless they are willing to turn their world-view upside down   
   and relinquish that paradigm. Keep in mind that they are probably very   
   invested in that paradigm. Were it found to be fundamentally incorrect, it   
   would mean that all their favorite professors were wrong, their doctoral   
   thesis was wrong, all their publications and public presentations have been   
   wrong, etc. Not fun to face.   
      
   So, to me, the issue becomes the social and psychological issue of the   
   process of accepting new ideas, and the nature of the resistance to new   
   ideas. In my opinion this is a natural process, and you have to include   
   reincarnation for it to make sense, because it can take more than one   
   lifetime to make that paradigm shift. In any case, when enough credible   
   witnesses reported seeing things in an adjoining room during an NDE, the   
   entire matter of whether it was a purely physiological phenomenon or not was   
   already resolved.   
   Steve S.   
      
      
   "Epoch II"  wrote in message   
   news:20040526061818.29868.00001849@mb-m07.aol.com...   
   >   
   > >The near-death experience (NDE) is a phenomenon of wide general interest.   
   > >Despite its association with sensationalist media reports, populist books   
   of   
   > >doubtful scientific value.   
   >   
   >  A small amount of bias can be noted here. I don't know which books in   
   > particular he's referring to, but if he means books' which contradict with   
   his   
   > research, then it's simply bad journalism to make this statement.   
   >   
   > >Recent advances in neuroscience are bringing us closer to a brain-based   
   > >understanding of the NDE as an altered state of consciousness.   
   >   
   > I don't think anyone would disagree that the NDE is an altered state of   
   > consciousness. An expanded state of consciousness may be a more   
   appropriate   
   > term.   
   >   
   > >This discussion does not address the issue of whether there is life after   
   > >death, but does argue that NDE's are not evidence for life after death.   
   >   
   > Many people who have had near death experiences would disagree. But,   
   that's   
   > beside the point. Since anecdotal information is worthless in a world of   
   drug   
   > induced hallucinations, right?   
   >   
   > >This   
   > >would be appear to be self-evident on logical grounds: death is defined   
   as   
   > >the final, irreversible end. The Oxford English Dictionary (Sykes, 1982)   
   > >defines death as the 'final cessation of vital functions. According to   
   this   
   > >definition, 'Returnees' did not die - although their minds, brains and   
   > >bodies may have been in a highly unusual state for a period of time. If   
   > >these definitions are not accepted, then we need a new terminology to   
   > >describe these states.   
   >   
   >  Perhaps what scares many people in the academic and scientific community   
   is   
   > the very idea of continued consciousness, it would flip society as we know   
   it   
   > upside down.   
   >   
   > What if death really did suddenly require a new definition?   
   >   
   > Do you really think the NDE would be sparking this much controversy if   
   these   
   > implications didn't exist? It would be very convenient if the entire   
   phenomenon   
   > could be explained away by Ketamine. But, as I will describe later.   
   Ketamine   
   > research is not reducing the NDE and the mystical properties contained   
   within,   
   > it's simply the study of an altered state of consciousness which has   
   similar   
   > aspects to the process of death.   
   >   
   >  There is certainly more to this subject then Ketamine and sister   
   chemicals   
   > which are released in the brain:   
   >  For instance, people experience NDE's after having cardiac arrest, being   
   > pronounced dead, and then taken to the morgue. (George Rodonnia) people   
   have   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)