XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "CAndersen (Kimba)"  wrote in message   
   news:l5o4d050513q7gdv61hlb7dqki4e7agqob@4ax.com...   
   > john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au (John Wilkins) wrote:   
   >   
   > >I knew this would get a rise, but I am satisfied with Sue Blackmore's   
   > >work on NDEs.   
   >   
   > From what I know of Blackmore's writing, she began with her own   
   > drug-induced experience, which lends the very real possibility of   
   > hallucination or perhaps a combination of OOBE and drug-induced   
   > hallucinations. I am reminded very much of Karl Jansen's original   
   > conclusions about ketamine and the NDE. To me, both sound like they're   
   > confusing experiences that are somewhat similar to an NDE with the NDE   
   > itself. It's worth noting that Jansen recanted his opposition to spiritual   
   > explanations of NDEs (Journal of Near-Death Studies, vol 16, Fall, 1997).   
   >   
   > Blackmore's conclusions seem to depend on some very poor hypotheses and   
   > logic, such as the supposition that her experience is identical to all   
   > others' NDEs, the idea that no NDErs can distinguish between what's real   
   > and what isn't, and that people's minds create these experiences to shore   
   > up their beliefs (when a full study of NDE reports does not support this   
   > idea).   
   >   
   > She also seeks to discount the notion that the life-changing aspect of a   
   > true NDE points to its reality by saying that any brush with death will   
   > have the same effect. However, research by Dr. Bruce Greyson contradicts   
   > her stance.   
   >   
   > Blackmore makes a truly astounding statement in "Dying to Live":   
   > "It is my contention that this "real thing" -- NDEs, mystical experiences   
   > and indeed everything encountered on the spiritual path -- are products of   
   > a brain and the universe of which it is a part. For there is nothing   
   > else." Taking her intended point into consideration, that there is nothing   
   > else other than the physical world, it is a statement of utmost arrogance   
   > and stupidity for she assumes she knows all there is and ignores the   
   > logical impossibility that lack of evidence proves that something does not   
   > exist. Ironically, the kicker "for there is nothing else" brings to mind   
   > the "universal oneness" often reported by NDErs and other experiencers of   
   > spiritual phenomena--if all is one, indeed there is nothing else.   
   >   
   > I find it interesting that on Blackmore's own web site, she includes an   
   > article by Ed Shermer, who says, "In the end, it is probably a matter of   
   > personal preference whether to interpret the NDE as a glimpse of the life   
   > beyond or the product of the dying brain." Certainly the personal   
   > preferences of those I've seen promote the "dying brain" hypothesis have   
   > been painfully obvious to me. Of those I've encountered who have had an   
   > NDE, their personal preference tends toward desiring a greater   
   > understanding of the phenomenon.   
   >   
   > My own interest in the NDE comes from great similarities between many NDE   
   > reports and my own "paranormal" (I hate that word) experiences.   
   >   
   >   
   > --   
   > Reply address munged. You can figure it out.   
      
   First of all the problem is to define what is meant by "near death".  How   
   near to death need one be to be considered near to it and in what way is one   
   near to it?  Not spatially I assume.  Not temporally either since one   
   evidently survives and may live for many years afterwards.  Isn't it really   
   in fact a subjective perception that one feels one may in fact die at that   
   moment?  After all one may die at any moment and is therefore always near to   
   death.  If it is the neurological special effects that accompany such a   
   conviction then those who ingest mind altering substances, provided they are   
   convinced they are going to die at the time, will have near death   
   experiences.  For myself about to fall from a great height and convinced I   
   was a goner I had a real sense of the moment including all I was and ever   
   had been which included my environment except I regained my balance.  What   
   made it potentially life changing was the awakening to the fact that I   
   really was alive.  No bright light now deities no departed ones to meet me   
   and tell me it wasn't my time yet.  The fact that there are unexplained   
   occurrences does not lend credence to the immediate interpretations that   
   seem to go hand in hand with them.  It is the interpretations that need   
   proving and until a provable interpretation is offered none of it means much   
   of anything and its just a matter of belief, nothing more.   
   --   
                  >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)