XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: sfct@aol.com   
      
   I was joking with the Raan bit. As long as you don't come across as   
   pompous or smug I'll refrain from it. But I'll also expect on your part   
   to refrain from presuming what others would think.   
      
   Try to refrain from some of the bad habits of the intellectual elite,   
   who presume too often, they can represent what others are thinking and   
   feeling.   
      
   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
   ----------------------   
      
      
      
   >   
   > > How do I make   
   > > this simple?   
   > >   
   > > Point 1:   
   > >   
   > > Is seeing a brilliant white light a common experience with people who   
   > > have experienced a NDE? Yes or NO? YES!!  Most NDE experiences have had   
   > > a white light in them. Not only that, many feel God is rather close to   
   > > them when they see it. Common knowledge.   
   > >   
   > > Point 2:   
   > >   
   > > But percentage of all dreams have a brilliant white light in them?  High   
   > > or very low? SUPER LOW!! And even if they see a white light in an   
   > > ordinary dream[like your pretend flashlight], how many of those white   
   > > lights come with a FEELING THAT GOD IS THERE TOO?   
   >   
   > Even if one takes your two points above, you still haven't answered   
   > the relevant question:  What percentage of dreams that involve white   
   > lights are, in fact, NDEs?  In other words, what is the probability   
   > that Rudy's dream is an NDE, given that it included a white light?   
   >   
   > Also, I must have missed the part of Rudy's description of his dream   
   > in which he mentioned a feeling that God was there.  Could you please   
   > repost that part for me?   
   >   
   > >   
   > >   
   > > Question :   
   > >   
   > > What are the odds of someone having a dream about a friend who happens   
   > > to die that particular night with a white light in it?   
   > >   
   > > Answer:   
   > >   
   > > Too low for anyone to rationally assume it was due to simple accidental   
   > > coincidence. At least not as the first plausible explanation. Does it   
   > > mean its true? No, and I never said that, did I? But can you be rational   
   > > and intelligent not to look into the question as a probable cause if   
   > > you're sincerely open minded? Fuck no.   
   > >   
   > > I didn't state Rudy had a NDE himself. Nope, no, NOOOO! Read carefully.   
   > > I said Rudy picked up on Godel's NDE.   
   >   
   > How do you know that Goedel had an NDE?   
   >   
   > Also, I thought the whole point of your presenting Rudy's dream was to   
   > refute the notion that NDEs are products of unusual brain states   
   > induced by, among other things, oxygen deprivation in the brains of   
   > those near death.  The fact that Rudy was young, healthy, and nowhere   
   > near death was supposed to go to that point.  But if what Rudy was   
   > experiencing was not an NDE itself, but rather a vicarious experience   
   > of Goedel's, then the dream no longer bears on that point.   
   >   
   > If *Goedel* were having an NDE, it could very well have been caused by   
   > oxygen deprivation, or some other pathological condition in his brain   
   > just like Raan has been suggesting.  Even if we were to credit the   
   > notion that Rudy were having a premonition or a telepathic experience,   
   > it has no bearing on the point Raan was trying to make about the   
   > purely physiological basis of the NDEs themselves.   
      
      
   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
   ---------------------------   
   Wow, do I ever disagree with you here. Once again we have to think about   
   the odds.   
      
   Rudy had his NDE dream the very night Godel died, not before, after.   
   Odds? Slim at best. Rudy's dream also included Godel as the one lying on   
   the bed. Why wasn't it himself or anyone else? Why not a nice dream   
   where he solved some earth shaking problems in their field? What Raan   
   ignores, and many others like him, is the fact that when people   
   experience a NDE, the whole experience is coherent. And they're also   
   aware they're dead.   
      
   Why should a dying brain conjure up some silly dream of meeting departed   
   souls and other beings which pass for angels when they can go out with a   
   sexual dream which ignores/protects the dying brain from the awful   
   truth. If the dream NDE serves a purpose I would suspect it would be   
   some form of psychological protection. BEST WAY TO DO IT? Nice   
   conforming dreams, full of denial.   
      
   But if there is no purpose from a dying brain suffering from oxygen   
   deprivation why should they be coherent? If your brain is dying, and   
   brain cells stop functioning, stop sending signals, why would anyone   
   expect any coherent mental experience about any afterlife. If I were   
   being scientific in my guesses I would be expecting total chaos with a   
   NDE. Confusion at best. But that isn't what people report. And contrary   
   to what was asserted before, you never hear of cases of people who said   
   they saw dead people, to only awaken later and find those people alive.   
   You can do that with drugs, not with NDEs. And Raan is ignoring the fact   
   that many people reported finding out some information with a NDE,   
   something they never knew or suspected before it, to only find it is   
   true afterwards. That is why many people who experienced a NDE, go from   
   a sceptic to a believer.   
      
      
   But if there is no purpose from a dying brain suffering from oxygen   
   deprivation why should they be coherent? If your brain is dying, and   
   brain cells stop working, stop sending signals,  why would anyone expect   
   any coherent experience about an afterlife. If I were being scientific   
   in my guesses I would be expecting total chaos with my NDE.  Confusion   
   at best. But that isn't what people report.   
      
   And contrary to what was asserted before, you never hear of cases of   
   people who said they saw dead people, to only awaken later and find   
   those people alive. You can do that with drugs, not with NDEs.   
      
   From a skeptic to a believer.  I saw a program on the science   
   channel[Comcast] about a Russian physicist [famous when younger], who   
   himself was atheistic. He died and stayed dead for some minutes. They   
   were ready to put his body on ice or whatever it is they do there.   
      
   He said he saw his wife at his home, the people who visited her when the   
   news was broken to her that her husband just died. And he also traveled   
   to see his niece who was less than a year old. Who constantly was   
   crying, but no one could figure out why. He found out in his new state,   
   dead, she had a fractured hip.   
      
   When he was brought back, and it just happened, they had given up on   
   him. He checked the information out. It was all-true. It so changed his   
   perspective; he gave up physics and became a priest. Unthinkable before   
   the NDE experience.   
      
   I would guess that a brain dying or one dead from a lack of oxygen   
   wouldn't have been able able to conjure up a rational NDE experience   
   which truthfully told him about his niece's condition and who happened   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)